D&D General elf definition semantic shenanigans

[Scribe]

Its worth noting that sun elves in 3e did not have a dexterity modifier. They got +2 Int, -2 Con. Guess they aren't really elves since they don't have a dex mod...

Elves are often Dex or Int, but that -2 Con? Yeah.

 

[Yaarel]

There are no, to my knowledge. Short, Squat, Thick, high Toughness, high Constitution, Elves.

The 3e Wild Elf is tough, lacking a Constitution penalty.

5e lacks the mechanic of an ability penalty.

5e 2024 can appropriately represent the concept of the 3e Wild Elf as: an Elf with +2 Dexterity, +1 Constitution.

(Meanwhile, the 1e Grugach Wild Elf translates as +2 Strength being extremely strong, athletic, +1 Wisdom with druidry.)

The Athasian Elf is a nomadic long-distance runner across extremely harsh hot lifeless desert terrain. By 5e definition, these are ubiquitous Constitution checks that the Elf makes seem effortless. The Athasian is also explicitly high Charisma mechanically, for social persuasiveness and effective merchants. The 5e translation is:

Elf, Athasian Desert, +2 Constitution, +1 Charisma.

To my knowledge, most (all?) Elves, are described in terms of being graceful, beautiful, agile, etc.

Many kinds of Elf lack Dexterity

4e Eladrin +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma
4e Sun Elf +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma (and use magic focus instead of sword and bow)
3e Sun Elf +2 Intelligence, −2 Constitution
Basic Elf +1 Intelligence, +1 Strength
Shadow Elf +1 Intelligence, +1 Strength

Plus other more obscure Elves, such as Rockseer.

 

[Scribe]

The issue is that
"most (all?) Elves, are described in terms of being graceful, beautiful, agile, etc."
is more that +2 Dex ( +1 Dex in 0e-1e).

Same with Dwarves. "high Constitution" isn't +2 Con.

No, of course not. There is the whole "Special Rules" part of the "Special Rules, ASI, and Ability Caps" to describe mechanically the species options.

Why everyone has to pretend like "OH you think +2 is enough" is just so weird after all these years of seeing it.

You all know that its a combination, you all know the general thrust of what makes an elf (dwarf/hobbit/halfling, whatever) and so do the AI image generators, and you know why they know?

Because culturally, the western view on fantasy is actually know.

But we all know this.

 

[Scribe]

The 3e Wild Elf is tough, lacking a Constitution penalty.

5e lacks the mechanic of an ability penalty.

5e 2024 can appropriately represent the concept of the 3e Wild Elf as: an Elf with +2 Dexterity, +1 Constitution.

(Meanwhile, the 1e Grugach Wild Elf translates as +2 Strength being extremely strong, athletic, +1 Wisdom with druidry.)

The Athasian Elf is a nomadic long-distance runner across extremely harsh hot lifeless desert terrain. By 5e definition, these are ubiquitous Constitution checks that the Elf makes seem effortless. The Athasian is also explicitly high Charisma mechanically, for social persuasiveness and effective merchants. The 5e translation is:

Elf, Athasian Desert, +2 Constitution, +1 Charisma.






Many kinds of Elf lack Dexterity

4e Eladrin +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma
4e Sun Elf +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma (and use magic focus instead of sword and bow)
3e Sun Elf +2 Intelligence, −1 Constitution
Basic Elf +1 Intelligence, +1 Strength
Shadow Elf +1 Intelligence, +1 Strength

Plus other more obscure Elves, such as Rockseer.

Fair enough, there are only so many options when Wizards is too afraid to actually you know, put limits and negative modifiers on things.

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

For a long time I was upset that Dungeons and Dragons, at that time, was shaping our view of what an elf was. Today it's pretty much set in stone.

A few years back I described a forest full of salamanders to my players and they started prepping for fire resistance. I was confused. It wasn't until later that I understood why.

 

[Scribe]

For a long time I was upset that Dungeons and Dragons, at that time, was shaping our view of what an elf was. Today it's pretty much set in stone.

A few years back I described a forest full of salamanders to my players and they started prepping for fire resistance. I was confused. It wasn't until later that I understood why.

Yeah, thats the thing here. After 50 years, LotR, WoW, and any number of D&D Clones?

People get it. Good luck getting folks to admit it, but we get it.

 

[Minigiant]

No, of course not. There is the whole "Special Rules" part of the "Special Rules, ASI, and Ability Caps" to describe mechanically the species options.

Why everyone has to pretend like "OH you think +2 is enough" is just so weird after all these years of seeing it.

You all know that its a combination, you all know the general thrust of what makes an elf (dwarf/hobbit/halfling, whatever) and so do the AI image generators, and you know why they know?

Because culturally, the western view on fantasy is actually know.

But we all know this.

yeah but the "special rules" for elves dwarves and the rest have not matched the lore for decades.

It really only stated to match lore when 4e gave races big racial powers to fully enforce that elves and dwarves and halflings were different. 5e reverted this a bit then came back to it later. In 2024 elves and dwarves might actual match the lore a bit.

 

[Remathilis]

Elves are often Dex or Int, but that -2 Con? Yeah.

Being Smart and Fraile is not, as you put it " in terms of being graceful, beautiful, agile, etc." Raistin was Smart and Fraile and definitely not an elf.

But that's the problem, isn't it? No description of elves could encompass the vast multitude of elves in D&D alone. Wood elves were xenophobic and the opposite of graceful (in the diplomatic sense), shadar-kai are wizened and old, sun elves aren't particularly agile. D&D defeats every attempt D&D makes to define elf.

The solution, of course, was already presented in Monsters of the Multiverse. We were given three elves, each with their own unique racial traits, that had a simple line "You are also considered an elf for any prerequisite or effect that requires you to be an elf.". That's it, that's what makes an elf an elf. Oh sure, there was lore and shared elements (darkvision, fey ancestry, trance, keen senses) but none of those things define an elf; plenty of races share one or more of those traits. (Hobgoblins share the exact same ones as half-elves). You want a graceful elf? Put an ASI in Cha. Agile? Put it in Dex. Each collection of traits is a tailored to that particular type of elf. You want to teleport? Swim? Fly? Pick the elf that fits. There is no need to cram all a particular type of elves abilities into a set of free-spells. EACH ELF TYPE IS UNIQUE.

But no, people want as few choices as possible so they will somehow want both deep lore about specific niche cultures of elves on Krynn and at the same time want all elves to reflect the high-elf stats in the PHB. Even WotC can't seem to get this one right because the solution was RIGHT THERE and then fumbled high, wood and drow elves into one singular elf race where their unique abilities boil down to "pick a list of free spells". And I'm sure they'll boil the eladrin, shadar-kai, astral, sea, and any other elf into a collection of spells when the time comes too.

And we'll keep arguing that elves with 8 Dexterities aren't elfy enough...

 

[Scribe]

But that's the problem, isn't it? No description of elves could encompass the vast multitude of elves in D&D alone. Wood elves were xenophobic and the opposite of graceful (in the diplomatic sense), shadar-kai are wizened and old, sun elves aren't particularly agile. D&D defeats every attempt D&D makes to define elf.

Wood Elves being xenophobic fits right in with being an Elf, seeing as Elves are very often elitist, if not outright racist.

Now, considering every book, in every edition, sometimes introduced multiple types of Elves, I suppose in the most extreme sense you are correct, we cannot have an 'Elf'. *

When I think of an Elf (Astral, Wood, Drow, High) its really not that tough however.

* Hyperbole alert.

 

[Yaarel]

It is also worth mentioning the Drow ability scores are all over the place across the D&D editions.


Originally in AD&D 1e, the Drow are sexually dimorphic. The abilities are in the Vault of the Drow adventure setting, and in the Fiend Folio.

1e Drow Elf: each score is determined by a separate mechanics, whose score ranges are as follows
Dexterity 14-20
Intelligence female 13-18 (male 11-18)
Charisma female 11-18 (male 9-16)
Wisdom female 9-18 (male 9-12)
Strength female 9-14 (male 7-12)
Constitution 4-16

Both sexes would translate roughly into 5e: Dexterity +2, Intelligence +1, with Constitution dump


Indeed, consider the AD&D 2e Drow and compare to the 2e Gray Elf.

2e Drow Elf: Dexterity +2, Intelligence +1 ... Str −1, Con −2
2e Gray Elf: Intelligence +2, Dexterity +1 ... Con −1, Str −2


HOWEVER, also in AD&D 1e

Gygax via the Unearthed Arcana has the Drow use the SAME ABILITY SCORES AS HUMANS: namely 3d6 without any improvement or any penalty. This kind of Drow lacks Dexterity improvement and has a Constitution as tough as a Human.

1e UA Drow Elf: abilities are the SAME as Human


D&D 3e mechanics changes all +1s and −1s into even number +2s and −2s. The third edition also decides to make all Drow, even males, be very high Charisma. The rationale is apparently the social skills that are necessary to survive in an extremely competitive treacherous culture. This charismatic Drow enters popculture, which leans into the Charisma of the Drow, including seductiveness and deception.

3e Drow Elf: Cha +2, Int +2, Dex +2, −2 Str, −2 Con


Then 4e transmits this 3e high Charisma Drow, but keeps in mind female Clerics:

4e Drow Elf: +2 Dexterity, +2 either Charisma or Wisdom


Finally, 5e reconceives 4e while downplaying 3e Charisma, and returning to 1e Dexterity:

5e 2014 Drow Elf: +2 Dexterity, +1 Charisma


However, the traditional Drow scores across the D&D editions can be almost any number.
• Charisma, Wisdom, Intelligence, and Dexterity can all be superhuman, with +2, and starting at a score of 20
• Constitution and Strength, even these scores can be decent and starting at 18


5e 2024 Drow Elf: the player chooses which scores to improve, +2 to one and +1 to an other