D&D General elf definition semantic shenanigans

[jmartkdr2]

No, but there are certainly sci-fi properties as big or bigger than D&D. Where are the torch and pitchfork-laden crowds demanding Ewoks be just as strong as Wookies?

Lack of centering around a game.

Though when a game is made... some efforts are made to balance it, and those games would probably get similar criticism is they were as dominant as DnD.

(Though I've rarely seen anyone say halflings should be as strong as goliaths, either. Maybe that a halfing pc should, if built right, be as strong as a goliath, but I'd suspect that in Star Wars d20 you could get an ewok to be as strong as a wookie.)

 

[Remathilis]

No, but there are certainly sci-fi properties as big or bigger than D&D. Where are the torch and pitchfork-laden crowds demanding Ewoks be just as strong as Wookies?

So, let's look at this from two different POV.

From the fiction standpoint, people don't care. Wookiees are described as strong, but how "strong" strong is undefined. Further, we don't know how strong Chewbacca is compared to another Wookiee, or even compared to Han and Luke. I mean, it was once said that Chewbacca's bowcaster required a pull that only a wookiee could fire it, yet come The Force Awakens, an elderly Han Solo had no problem firing it.

In short, nobody really thinks about how strong Chewbacca is, and if they do, they don't question how much of that is due to wookiee biology or if Chewie doesn't skip leg day.

Now, us RPG players, WE care because we need to give everything a mechanical or numeric value in order to foster play. Well, the most recent Star Wars RPG, Edge of the Empire, gives numbers to racial abilities. If you're not familiar with EotE, each ability is given a numeric value that tells you how many dice you roll. (It's more complicated than that but let's leave it there for now). Scores range from 1 - 6, with 2 being human average. You know that wookies get? 3 in brawn. (Which is Str/Con mixed together). One higher. Ewoks don't have official PC stats, btw. Also, keep in mind that species has extraordinarily little in terms of racial traits: your wookiee gets a free rank in brawl and does more damage when injured. Further, being that its a skill and talent-tree system, attributes don't mean as much as they do in D&D. Your skill ranks will be far more than your attribute in the long run.

EotE was also made over a decade ago and is basically on life-support as an RPG, I don't think there is a big demand for species to be changed in it. Perhaps whoever ends up with Star Wars RPG again will even out species traits. Who knows.

 

[Yaarel]

Elves manifest Human ideals, for themselves and for Humans.

Human ideals are conflictive. Ideals can run amok, when one ideal becomes so focal it starts to neglect other ideals.

In any case, it is always an idealism that motivates an Elf. Elves are powerful magic that make ideals happen. Elves train their magic to become even more powerful to do so. Elves often form communities to cooperatively combine their collective magic to champion an idealism. A community magical ritual is called "mythal". The participation in a mythal is what defines a particular elven community and its local culture. These mythals can be vast Epic magics when Elves of Epic Tier get involved. A mythal can create a majestic city, an airborne city, can modify the bodies of community members, and so on. A mythal can be for any conceivable community-wide goal. Even the elven communities of modest tiers can perform impressive and impactful mythals.

Humans can appeal to an Elf, by discovering the idealism that the Elf cherishes, and relating oneself in the context of the ideal: compassion and justice, ambition and pragmatic tactics. Elves notice and appreciate Humans who are unusually idealistic − sincere, compassionate, proactive, hopeful, whole-hearted, idealistic. These Humans bring out the best in Elves.

Idealism drives Elves to make the Human world an idealistically better place − not just a more pleasurable world for Humans but a world where Humans themselves can choose to become better versions of themselves. Make the Human world a better place. Material Plane a better place. Make the multiverse a better place. Like Humans, there are many Elves who want to stop and relax from the effort, and to return home to their Garden of Eden, Avandor. But they cannot return until they complete their fateful task. It is the Human world and the multiverse that must become more ideal. The Elves navigate the timelines and choices to optimize toward this goal.

 

[Yaarel]

When considering a "reorganization" of Gnome between the Halfling species and the Dwarf species, the comparison with Elves is interesting.

The Elves are Fey. Apparently the primordial Elves at the origins of space-time create the Feywild, or at least catalyze the way it comes to be. The elven cultures who immigrate into the Material Plane adopt Human bodies of flesh and blood. Those Eladrin in the Fey court cultures have Human forms, but the embodiment and physicality and appetite of the Material Elves is a meaningful distinction.

Say, the "Halfling" is a nickname for a Gnome who becomes flesh and blood. Gnomes are Fey. Across the great chain of being, of the planar levels of existence, Elves are more top down, from Aster to Ether to Matter to draw the Material back toward the Astral ideals. Gnomes are more about the Material as-is. Gnomes are the presence of a home. The Human house is alive. The home is part of the lives that happen there. Likewise other homes that Humans build become aware and participant, such as ships and mines. Within the Fey Border, the homey atmosphere is a spiritual presence but can manifest a humanlike form. These spirits tend toward a childlike innocence growing up safe in a home. They can be playful and curious, and fun-loving. They can get angry at mistreatment of animals, or scowl if a Human family member isnt doing what they are "spose" to do.

The aspects of the D&D Gnome traditions that are more wilderness-oriented are actually Dwarf traits. These "Rock" Gnomes dont disappear, but are cultures of the Dwarf species, or perhaps explicitly cultures of Dwarf-Gnome multispecies.

The Gnome is home-centered and Human-oriented, including a farm or other estate, and persons including animals who are part of the home. The Feywild version of this Human home sometimes looks more like a science lab with the Gnome in reverie of discovery, wonder, and accomplishment. It is a Fey expression of the home. The Gnomes get excited about what the Humans get excited about. The Gnomes want everyone in the home to feel peace − and fun.

Some Fey Gnomes choose to − and find ways to − enter the Material Plane. Their curiosity and bravery enters where angels fear to tread. These "Halflings" of flesh and blood carry with them their sense of homeyness. Yet with physical bodies, they are autonomous from the physical home where they originate. They can form communities, reproducing as Humans do. Most Halflings are born from other Halflings, but a few are a house who chose to explore the world. Some Human families ask their house gnome to leave. All Halfings bring with them their home magic wherever they go, and their Fey luck.

An Elf is likely to think in a context of homes, towns, governments, worlds, planes. Idealism drives the Elf to plan ambitious and centuries long projects to make the world better. Elves might create a shelter to escape a disaster that is many centuries away. The Halfling seeks to appreciate what one already has. One home, a particular family, awesome pets, good neighbors. Fun, comfort, safety for ones family. The Halfling wants to savor the love of the moment.

 

[Minigiant]

Are gnomes former fey, dwarfkin, halfling-kin, or their own lineage?

 

[Scribe]

Are gnomes former fey, dwarfkin, halfling-kin, or their own lineage?

They are fey. We don't need to over complicate things. It's all much much easier than se wish to portray.

 

[Yaarel]

Are gnomes former fey, dwarfkin, halfling-kin, or their own lineage?

In the context of the post above?


Gnomes are a Fey species. The origin of Gnomes is unrelated to the origin of Elves, but both are Fey.

Suppositionally.

Material Halfling : Fey Gnome : : Material Elf : Fey Eladrin


Note. In 2024, multispecies characters are possible.

Stout = Halfling + Dwarf
Tallfellow = Halfling + Human + Elf

Possibly
Rock = Gnome + Dwarf
Mul = Dwarf + Human

 

[Minigiant]

They are fey. We don't need to over complicate things. It's all much much easier than se wish to portray.

That's my preference.

Garl and Corellon each created their own fey beings and for different reasons they became humaniods.

 

[Tonguez]

So, let's look at this from two different POV.

From the fiction standpoint, people don't care. Wookiees are described as strong, but how "strong" strong is undefined. Further, we don't know how strong Chewbacca is compared to another Wookiee, or even compared to Han and Luke. I mean, it was once said that Chewbacca's bowcaster required a pull that only a wookiee could fire it, yet come The Force Awakens, an elderly Han Solo had no problem firing it.

In short, nobody really thinks about how strong Chewbacca is, and if they do, they don't question how much of that is due to wookiee biology or if Chewie doesn't skip leg day.

Now, us RPG players, WE care because we need to give everything a mechanical or numeric value in order to foster play. Well, the most recent Star Wars RPG, Edge of the Empire, gives numbers to racial abilities. If you're not familiar with EotE, each ability is given a numeric value that tells you how many dice you roll. (It's more complicated than that but let's leave it there for now). Scores range from 1 - 6, with 2 being human average. You know that wookies get? 3 in brawn. (Which is Str/Con mixed together). One higher. Ewoks don't have official PC stats, btw. Also, keep in mind that species has extraordinarily little in terms of racial traits: your wookiee gets a free rank in brawl and does more damage when injured. Further, being that its a skill and talent-tree system, attributes don't mean as much as they do in D&D. Your skill ranks will be far more than your attribute in the long run.

EotE was also made over a decade ago and is basically on life-support as an RPG, I don't think there is a big demand for species to be changed in it. Perhaps whoever ends up with Star Wars RPG again will even out species traits. Who knows.

I'm increasingly convinced that racial Stat mods arent actually needed and should be left floating.

What we do know about Wookies is that they are a large (tall), arboreal humanoid
So converting them to 5e we make Wookies medium-sized, with an Aboreal trait (Climb Speed/Athletics) and Powerful build (treated as large for lift/pull etc).

Then let a PC who wants to play a Wookie can put his stat mods where he wants maybe Dex+2 and Int+1 (Technology).
Given Chewbacca's tendency to tear limbs off people who offended him, he might choose the Str +2 and a feat: Rending Grapple* (is Chewbacca still the only canon Wookie to do that, or has it be generalised across the species?)

 

[EzekielRaiden]

what are the most consistent stats that come up?

Who cares? Seriously. Who cares what is "most common"? Are we only and exclusively playing the incredibly rare "perfectly average elf"? I certainly don't. I play my character, who will often be significantly, even radically different from other elves (well, usually I play dragonborn, but you get my meaning.) I play characters that are outliers in at least some ways, because toeing the line of "perfectly average" is boring.

Further, keep in mind: if you measure more than about 5 or 6 things on a given human being, even with an incredibly generous definition of "average," you are effectively guaranteed to not find anyone who is average. This was discovered by the US Air Force in the 50s when they were trying to make airplanes and skin-tight garments that would fit the "average" airman. Turns out, even if you only choose ten measurements, then out of over 4000 different measured airmen, there were exactly zero that were average in all ten areas. You can see this quite simply: Let's say "average" people are in the middle 50%, yeah? That's quite a generous definition of "average," I should think. But that means any given person's likelihood of being average on any given metric is...well, 50%, by design. 0.5^10 = 1/1024. So even if you consider the middle half to be average, you'd only expect about four "average" airmen in 4000!

would it not be a equivalency?
A sickly elf has a start of four a very sickly dwarf has a stat of four.
all will eventually produce more or less andy stat combo that will result in an individual living to a age where they are recorded but what a culture thinks as baseline might be really different.

Not at all.

On the one hand, the range of variation within a given species is vast. The shortest verified human being was 21.5 inches tall (1'10.5") at the time of his death in 2015, and he was 75 at the time, so it's not like his height reflected any severe medical complications (his cause of death was not reported, but he had apparently contracted pneumonia sometime before his death, which may have been the cause.) The tallest non-pathological human (that is, not someone suffering from gigantism) was 7'9". Outliers, even perfectly healthy ones, can be vastly far away from the average.

Further, there are certain hard limits one cannot pass without...well, death. Who cares if it is a "very sickly" dwarf vs a merely "sickly" elf? They end up having the same stats. But that's not possible when ALL dwarves have an innate +2. The sickliest elves are sicker than the sickliest dwarves, even though that isn't how real populations actually work--there's a hard cutoff at some point. Likewise, 5e explicitly has a hard cutoff at the top end: no mortal can be more than 20.

These hard limits ensure that, because populations are weird and variable and have outliers, you'll definitely have some sickly dwarves who are exactly as sickly as an elf-equivalent.

The best way to represent this, then, is to not make Constitution mandatory for dwarves, but to still have it be a common inherent feature. And that's exactly what the "+2 Con or +2 Wis" option does. It ensures that dwarves will still be known for their hardiness (after all, implicitly, about half of them will be hardier than the theoretical average being), but doesn't force the unrealistic and unnatural requirement that EVERY dwarf is simply a cut above EVERY elf of similar life and experiences.