D&D General elf definition semantic shenanigans

[Clint_L]

I don't think anyone is arguing that there shouldn't be substantial differences between different species and cultures in a setting, so that a typical orc or typical elf are very distinct. Diversity is fun and interesting! I think the only issue is whether game mechanics should be used to steer players, specifically, towards building a typical orc or typical elf. That's the only part where I have an issue, because I've seen how it leads to a lot of same-y characters.

 

[Corinnguard]

I don't think anyone is arguing that there shouldn't be substantial differences between different species and cultures in a setting, so that a typical orc or typical elf are very distinct. Diversity is fun and interesting! I think the only issue is whether game mechanics should be used to steer players, specifically, towards building a typical orc or typical elf. That's the only part where I have an issue, because I've seen how it leads to a lot of same-y characters.

This is where a selection of racial gifts at specific levels for each race are a must.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Chewbacca : Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrgh!
C-3PO : He made a fair move. Screaming about it can't help you.
Han Solo : Let him have it. It's not wise to upset a Wookiee.
C-3PO : But sir, nobody worries about upsetting a droid.
Han Solo : That's 'cause droids don't pull people's arms out of their sockets when they lose. Wookiees are known to do that.
Chewbacca : Grrf.
C-3PO : I see your point, sir. I suggest a new strategy, R2: let the Wookiee win

I am sure the point was to mention how wookiees are known for their temper. Despite that line, we never actually see Chewie do anything that would require that kind of strength. I just don't think you can pull a definite notion of how strong a wookiee is from Han's casual threat.

(Note, I'm not arguing Chewie, or wookiees in general, are not strong. I just don't think that without diving deep into EU lore, we can determine if wookiees are all that much stronger than humans.)

I think deciding that story is exaggerated is a choice based on not wanting evidence of wookie strength to cloud your argument. You can always say something a character says isn't true if you don't want it to be, but there's no evidence Han was lying.

 

[Remathilis]

I think deciding that story is exaggerated is a choice based on not wanting evidence of wookie strength to cloud your argument. You can always say something a character says isn't true if you don't want it to be, but there's no evidence Han was lying.

I'm saying that Han's statement isn't proof enough that wookiees should have a bonus to strength in an RPG. Especially coming from a known BSer.

 

[Tonguez]

Chewbacca : Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrgh!
C-3PO : He made a fair move. Screaming about it can't help you.
Han Solo : Let him have it. It's not wise to upset a Wookiee.
C-3PO : But sir, nobody worries about upsetting a droid.
Han Solo : That's 'cause droids don't pull people's arms out of their sockets when they lose. Wookiees are known to do that.
Chewbacca : Grrf.
C-3PO : I see your point, sir. I suggest a new strategy, R2: let the Wookiee win

I am sure the point was to mention how wookiees are known for their temper. Despite that line, we never actually see Chewie do anything that would require that kind of strength. I just don't think you can pull a definite notion of how strong a wookiee is from Han's casual threat.

(Note, I'm not arguing Chewie, or wookiees in general, are not strong. I just don't think that without diving deep into EU lore, we can determine if wookiees are all that much stronger than humans.)

yeah, thats why ancestral traits (powerful build, tree climbing) and floating stat mods are better, let the player decide if their Wookie gets an Str boost or if the whole thing was just intimidation.
Of course in DnD rules its not possible to rip an opponents arms off so thats moot (unless we add a feat that allows it)

 

[Remathilis]

yeah, thats why ancestral traits (powerful build, tree climbing) and floating stat mods are better, let the player decide if their Wookie gets an Str boost or if the whole thing was just intimidation.
Of course in DnD rules its not possible to rip an opponents arms off so thats moot (unless we add a feat that allows it)

I look forward to Vorpal Grappling in Minsc's Guide to Heroic Butt Kicking.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I liked the epigenetic idea that was mentioned a couple postings ago. According to Wikipedia, epigenetics is the study of heritable traits, or a stable change of cell function, that happen without changes to the DNA sequence.[1] The Greek prefix epi- (ἐπι- "over, outside of, around") in epigenetics implies features that are "on top of" or "in addition to" the traditional (DNA sequence based) genetic mechanism of inheritance.[2] Epigenetics usually involves a change that is not erased by cell division, and affects the regulation of gene expression.[3] Such effects on cellular and physiological phenotypic traits may result from environmental factors, or be part of normal development.

So while the DNA of the various metahumans in Shadowrun is still human DNA, there are epigene markers for each kind of metahuman and magic use that are activated only in the presence of ambient magic.

Epigenetics isn't completely unrelated to basic genetics; its more of a case of genetic traits that just may or may not express themselves depending on environmental factors.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm saying that Han's statement isn't proof enough that wookiees should have a bonus to strength in an RPG. Especially coming from a known BSer.

Han's statement also isn't proof of the opposite. Deciding its an exaggeration and doesn't really mean anything is a choice you are making.

 

[Remathilis]

Han's statement also isn't proof of the opposite. Deciding its an exaggeration and doesn't really mean anything is a choice you are making.

The issue is, going by the movies, there isn't proof he is exceptionally strong, or at least stronger than a normal human could be. Put another way, even if he had a 16 strength on D&D terms, that isn't sufficient to establish all wookiees have a +2 to strength.

This is all a moot point though. If your point is that scifi is immune to the "species stereotyping real races/cultures" I will gladly point you to the nemodians from the prequels or the gungans. Lucas caught heavy Shiitake for how much those species resembled racist caricatures. Star Trek has likewise caught flack for how their species (esp the Ferengi) have likewise been monocultured. And if Star Wars and Star Trek were primarily RPGs, I'm sure that controversy would have fostered changes by now.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Han's statement also isn't proof of the opposite. Deciding its an exaggeration and doesn't really mean anything is a choice you are making.

It generally behooves the party making the affirmative claim to provide evidence “Wookies are strong enough to tear off a person’s limbs”.

A joking claim (since it seems unlikely that Chewie would actually dismember C3PO) by a known BSer isn’t strong evidence that Wookies can lieterally do that, unless you are also willing to accept that Han’s other ridiculous vlaims are also gospel.

That being said, Star Wars fans ARE noted for going to extreme lengths to justify stupid things Han has said.