[ELH] Lingering Damage

[toberane]

I don't know if this has ever come up before, as I'm not a regular reader on the rules forum.

I just hit level 21 last night (I'm a Rogue 17/Ranger 2/Fighter 2). I want to take the lingering damage feat, but I'm confused as to how it works. It sounds like any sneak attack damage from one round gets repeated the next round.

So here's the deal. My BAB is 16/11/6/1. I have improved two weapon fighting, which gives me 6 attacks a round (7 if I'm hasted, which I frequently am). I have a ring of blinking, so all opponents I face are denied their dex bonus to AC, and therefore susceptible to sneak attacks on every attack I make. Everytime I hit with a sneak attack, I do 9d6 points of sneak attack damage. so, I could conceivably do as much as 54d6 points of sneak attack damage in a round.

If I do hit every time in round one, then attack with all 6 attacks again in round two, doing sneak attack damage every time as well, will I actually do a repeat of the first 54d6 in addition to this round's potential 54d6 of sneak attack damage as well? It seems a bit excessive, and as of right now, my DM has ruled that I only get the lingering damage on my first successful sneak attack of the round, meaning that I would only do an additional 9d6 of damage the following round.

What is your take on this feat?

[EDIT] Spelling and grammar.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

In the frightening event that you got off all seven attacks, your target yould take all 54D6 next round.

one of the few things about Epic that I plan on changing drasticly. I think I'll make it one point per dice, i.e., minimum damage. Still potent, but not ungodly. Just my take, but you had it right by the book. It isn't said much clearer than "...every time...".

 

[Mordeth]

I have a ring of blinking, so all opponents I face are denied their dex bonus to AC, and therefore susceptible to sneak attacks on every attack I make.

I thought about getting the ring but I thought that the miss chance, even at 20% of my attacks failing, was too great. How often do you miss because of the ring?

Of course my DM gets upset now when I get Improved Invisibilty, that massive extra 2d6 sneak attack that I do and all....v

 

[CRGreathouse]

If I do hit every time in round one, then attack with all 6 attacks again in round two, doing sneak attack damage every time as well, will I actually do a repeat of the first 54d6 in addition to this round's potential 54d6 of sneak attack damage as well? It seems a bit excessive, and as of right now, my DM has ruled that I only get the lingering damage on my first successful sneak attack of the round, meaning that I would only do an additional 9d6 of damage the following round.

You'll seldom get to sneak attack, and your attack bonus is really bad. I don't really see the problem.

 

[toberane]

Re: Re: [ELH] Lingering Damage

I thought about getting the ring but I thought that the miss chance, even at 20% of my attacks failing, was too great. How often do you miss because of the ring?

Surprisingly, not all that often. Particularly with 6 attacks a round, the one or two that miss every now and then don't really matter that much. Now the 50% miss chance that the opponent has on you, plus the automatic half damage from area of effect spells and an extra +2 to hit for attacking as an invisible creature, those are all really nice and more than make up for the 20% miss chance.

Actually, I rarely take a full attack action and get all my attacks. We have a mage that usually casts Mass Haste before we go into a battle, and I will often use spring attack to jump in, get two attacks at my highest attack bonus, then spring attack back out. Keeps me out of threat range, and it's often the only way I have any chance of hitting some of the guys we go up against. (We adventure in the Forgotten Realms North, and do lots of Demon hunting. As a Rogue, I need every plus to hit I can get if I'm trying to hit a Balor, particularly when our DM decides to pep them up to make a better challenge )

 

[toberane]

Re: Re: [ELH] Lingering Damage

You'll seldom get to sneak attack, and your attack bonus is really bad. I don't really see the problem.

As I stated before, the ring of blinking gives me a sneak attack every time I hit. When you Blink, you attack as an invisible creature, denying your opponent hit dex bonus. According to the rules, any time a creature or person is denied their dex bonus, it's a sneak attack. So I get to sneak attack all the time (minus the 20% miss chance from blinking, which actually doesn't amount to much, certainly not enough to outweigh the benefits of the ring).

Even if you don't have a ring of blinking, it's pretty easy to coordinate with your other group members to be sure that you are almost always flanking your opponent, particularly if you have a good score in your tumble skill and use it to move into flanking positions without provoking attacks of opportunity (just did this the other night, rolled right beneath the legs of two different demons (2 tumble checks, DC 25 to roll through a square occupied by an enemy without taking an attack of opportunity), came up behind the back one, and killed it that turn.

Additionally, improved initiative is a must for any rogue. That plus a high dex insures that you will often act before your opponents. They are flat footed (no dex) and pow! Sneak attack.

Add in the expert tactician feat (an extra attack when your opponent is denied his dex) and you get an extra sneak attack every time. (OH MY GOD! I JUST REALIZED I HAVE THIS FEAT! I've been using this ring of blinking for about 3 months now, and I don't think I've ever taken the extra partial action I get from my opponent being denied his dex. That's the problem with being 21st level--you have so many feats and special abilities, it's easy to forget you have them. My DM's gonna love me... I figured out how to get an extra attack every round. Huzzah!)

These are just a few ways to get sneak attacks. How do you figure that you don't get to sneak attack very often?

As to my attack bonus not being very good, what I listed earlier was just my base. Add in dex bonus for weapon finesse, magical bonuses for the weapon, etc, and my actual bonuses would be more like: two weapon- 25/20/15/10 with my on-hand, 23/18 with my off-hand (+5 holy, evil outsider bane in on-hand, +3 short sword in off hand). Single handed- 27/22/17/12. Add an extra +2 for blinking, an extra +2 if they are evil (holy sword), and often an extra +2 for flanking, plus any other enhancements our cleric casts on the party, and yeah, I hit quite often. I love hitting a demon with a short sword, then picking up a handful of dice and rolling more damage than a wizard can do with a fireball. And I really love sometimes doing that as much as six times a round .

OK, so we aren't in exactly a low-magic campaign. That doesn't make it easy. We have had almost every member of our party killed at least once since we started on this adventure. (We are all about 6 to 8 levels haigher now than we were 6 months ago. Our leader is 24th level, and he got killed for the first time ever about a month ago.) I've gone unconscious several times, but not been killed yet (knock on wood).

 

[Mordeth]

Surprisingly, not all that often. Particularly with 6 attacks a round, the one or two that miss every now and then don't really matter that much. Now the 50% miss chance that the opponent has on you, plus the automatic half damage from area of effect spells and an extra +2 to hit for attacking as an invisible creature, those are all really nice and more than make up for the 20% miss chance.

Damn, I am sold. Thats still not as bad as Improved Invis. Our dm decided he didnt like me being invis and killed our party cleric because of it. "Well if they could have seen you, they would have attacked you, not him" was the classic response.

Now tell me, if you are attacking 50 orcs ALL with nets, and some extras, and great axes, what would you do?

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

Re: Re: Re: [ELH] Lingering Damage

Actually, I rarely take a full attack action and get all my attacks. We have a mage that usually casts Mass Haste before we go into a battle, and I will often use spring attack to jump in, get two attacks at my highest attack bonus, then spring attack back out. Keeps me out of threat range, and it's often the only way I have any chance of hitting some of the guys we go up against.

Not to take the wind out of your sails, but you can't really do that. Haste gives you an extra partial action before OR after your normal one, not in the middle. You could charge, take the full attack, and use the partial to get out of dodge.

 

[toberane]

Re: Re: Re: Re: [ELH] Lingering Damage

Not to take the wind out of your sails, but you can't really do that. Haste gives you an extra partial action before OR after your normal one, not in the middle. You could charge, take the full attack, and use the partial to get out of dodge.

I believe that your interpretation fits the letter of the rules, but not the spirit of the rules. Your retreat from the spring attack isn't clearly defined, and so I spoke with the DM and we agreed that this would be the best way to work haste and spring attack. I realize that there are other DMs who wouldn't let me do that, but mine will. Rule 0 and all that.

I believe that it is within the spirit of both the spring attack feat and the haste spell to allow a player to spring in, make a regular attack, make a hasted attack, then spring out. The other option we kicked around was to use the partial action to spring attack and then take the full attack action with the regular attack. Neither specifically fits the letter of the law, but we determined that the first option fit the spirit of the law.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [ELH] Lingering Damage

I believe that your interpretation fits the letter of the rules, but not the spirit of the rules.

His interpretation fits with both the spirit and letter of the rules. Spring Attack allows you to take your standard action during your move action, instead of only before or after. Haste actions come before or after your regular actions. You cannot place your haste action next to your standard action in a Spring Attack, because, quite simply, Spring Attack doesn't let you take your standard action and "anything else you can manage to cram in there" during your move action.

The other option we kicked around was to use the partial action to spring attack and then take the full attack action with the regular attack.

This is simply insane. There is no logical interpretation that could possibly, nor remotely, even suggest that haste or Spring Attack would allow it. Spring Attack only works when you have a standard action and move action and you take them both. If you don't take a move action, you can't spring attack. Granted, you could use your haste as a move, but you can't cram a full-attack action in there using Spring attack.

Then again, there is always rule-0, but as I have said many times before, rule-0 does not always equal a sensible or logical ruling.