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D&D 5E Eliminating darkvision from most races

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
How interesting, understandable, and frankly, odd...

There seems to be an assumption made by more than one person that Underdark races would use light in Underdark warfare because of the perceived advantages. Is this right, or could it bely a lack of experience in night fighting as it is done in the real world and a lack of the application of self-reflection on the effect of our shared human experience on our personal point of view?

I would say that seems likely.

Let me make a couple of illustrative examples with the rules mechanics thrown in to get the ball rolling on my point of view on this;

1. Attacking at disadvantage due to dim light/darkvision mechanics:

I can find no justification as to why darkvision races would give up the advantage of surprise to increase the chance to hit, they would I think just volley fire in volume at range to increase the number of hits. As nearly any enemy with darkvision (except for those with tremorsense mobs) would be at the same disadvantage in melee the issue balances out at shorter ranges. One only has to look at the effectiveness of the use of volley fired 'night arrows' in the medieval period - how it was both terrifying and regarded as dishonourable (note: this really meant 'too effective' due to the sneaky surprise factor) to see this would not be an advantage readily discarded in a way which evened the odds. Whe one considers longer range darkvision where one has a huge edge over 'normal' darkvision races, this becomes an utter no-brainer.

2. Darkvision and living underground:

With darkvision, in most of the Underdark, or caves, or dungeons (etc.) the next stone wall or turn in the tunnel is going to be within 60ft, and certainly 120ft. Check out real life cave systems, and look at the many dungeons and cavern systems mapped out over the years for D&D and count the instances of this - you will find the overwhelming majority of spaces are smaller, and once again, with longer range Darkvision, we are talking a very high percentage indeed. Why introduce a light source unless some threat you are expecting can only be discerned by colour and not shape... in truth, how many of these threats fit this incredibly narrow definition?

This brings me to my other point - the effect of 'humanocentric' perception bias on the issue.

Where Drow cities in vast caverns are depicted in illustrations, sure, there are light sources, but these would in practicality be about landmark navigation as much as architects wanting everyone to see their magnificent handiwork. With good signage, or the kind of familiarity a denizen would have, even this would prove unnecessary.

It is HUMANS who created D&D and it's races, and humans who expect to see things with a background, and in colour. When is the last time you saw an Underdark scene without a light source and in black and white? That's right - you haven't, because we simply don't value this kind of image. The flipside of this of course is that we use such images as a subliminal baseline for 'what it should look like', and thus you get such illogical nonsense as Drow Houses who use colour in their heraldic devices to differentiate their houses - when in reality, shape of device would be far more prevalent. Drow on Drow fights have no need to include light - whatsoever - unless of course they are using coloured devices to differentiate themselves, in which case why would they use them at all considering the disadvantages?

They wouldn't...

We are all human of course, and are limited to this extent to the capabilities of our senses - but very small numbers of humans DO have experience of using darkvision to fight, and I can tell you from personal experience (I am ex-army), that the use of night vision equipment (a little cumbersome, and makes your blurrier more immediate environment green...) gives you a massive advantage in the darkness (despite the inconvenience and drawbacks of an equipment-based capability) over those without it. No-one would give that up given the alternatives, and if the military ever developed biotech eyeballs with nightvision capabilities, the advantages of using it would be even greater - especially if the user could not be temporarily blinded by bright light (as the short range darkvision races illogically enjoy...).

If you disagree with what I am saying, then of course you are entirely entitled to do so. But if I may ask, if you could justify in your rejoinder why it is you think every advanced army in the world is wrong about this I would genuinely be interested to hear what your reasoning is.

Thanks.

That's easy. To gain an advantage on other creatures with darkvision. Creatures of the underdark are far more concerned about other creatures of the underdark, not surface creatures. But they also live in a world where there are natural light sources and have experienced that too.

Darkvision makes Stealth easier. Because other creatures with darkvision have disadvantage on perception. Placing light sources outside your area of darkvision negates this benefit. Moreover, when you are outside the radius of light, you are now at an advantage.

Within a civilized locale I would expect much of the region to be lit just to eliminate that particular advantage. In past editions you also couldn't read, so light was needed for that as well. Creatures such as drow have an innate ability to cast darkness which is sort of pointless if it's always dark, although magical darkness may inhibit darkvision as well.

The light used may differ from what we're used to, being dimmer (but not dim in game terms) and possibly colored. Particularly in a civilized situation, it's a natural survival instinct to expand one's field of vision when it's dark. If you can only see 120 ft, lighting your home or city is a natural way to expand one's zone of safety. Sure, in a military or hunting circumstance the benefit of stealth far outweighs the disadvantages, but for normal life light increases one's safety.
 

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Caliburn101

Explorer
[MENTION=6778044]Ilbranteloth[/MENTION]

You seem to be agreeing with me for the most part, with some parts at odds. So, forgive me, but it does feel like you only read the start and end of my post rather than the whole thing...
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
[MENTION=6778044]Ilbranteloth[/MENTION]

You seem to be agreeing with me for the most part, with some parts at odds. So, forgive me, but it does feel like you only read the start and end of my post rather than the whole thing...

I read the entire post. Although you mention that "illustrations show drow cities using light" you also have a thrust that says that we (humans) make assumptions that they would use light in their cities or elsewhere, and that it's a humanocentric approach, such as indicating drow house devices would be about shape and not color, for example. So the thrust of the entire post, despite acknowledging that illustrations show the use of light, is that they would use it as little as possible if at all. While you seem to be focused most on combat situations, that's the feel I got from your post. In addition, my thoughts are for the benefit of the larger discussion, about whether underdark races would use light, and whether darkvision is really such an advantage.

Since a lit object in an otherwise dark space is so visible, I suspect that intelligent underdark would use light liberally to their advantage. Drow have an innate faerie fire and dancing lights, both of which are strategic spells in the dark for this very purpose.

The larger discussion, to which I was addressing, is focusing primarily on combat advantages, which is what a large amount of your post is doing as well. That's all well and good, since players often look at D&D through the lens of "what makes my character better in combat." My position is to start from the opposite direction - what would a civilized culture do? The use of light in human development was probably a secondary development. Fire was most likely most important for heat first, then perhaps for light and/or cooking. It was also useful for safety as most animals are afraid of it, which probably applies to animals of the underdark as well.

In addition, drow lore in D&D is that they started as a surface race. So they may have embraced the darkness over time, but they came from a culture that had fire, light, and magic. Their use of light strategically would certainly be different than a surface elf at this point, but would still be something they were already familiar with. Their use of light would also differ from that of a race that evolved entirely in the underdark.

The most common threat in the underdark are probably the equivalent of predator animals/monsters on the surface world. So drow, dwarves, and other intelligent underdark races would likely take advantage of the use of light to keep predators at bay, as those creatures most likely prefer to remain in the darkness.

Also, while I consider derro and duergar as Underdark races, dwarves are not. They are subterranean, but not Underdark. Their greatest fears are probably related to the true Underdark races who have better darkvision and are more at home in the dark. Goblins, orcs, and other such creatures are always a threat, but they are a much more known threat, and probably use light as well for similar reasons - to push the true dark as far away as possible. Patrols might very well carry light as well. A patrol is not attempting to be stealthy, they are usually attempting to announce their presence to assert their dominance over a region. The light serves as a warning to those that would trespass. A patrol is hoping not to engage in combat, just observing and driving off threats, hopefully due to superior numbers and strength.

Criminals will avoid the use of light where possible. Of course, an drow rogue has the same chance against a drow rogue as a human rogue does against a human rogue. A human rogue cannot see in total darkness, so they will take advantage of the shadows, of dim light, to give them an advantage. A drow rogue will stay to the darkness, which is essentially the same as dim light to a human. Again, the point is to consider the use of light from the perspective of the drow world.

Military movements will use light or no light depending on the type and purpose of the attack. Stealth attacks wouldn't use light. Large scale attacks would - especially when ranged weapons are in play to extend their usable range. In the Underdark, all creatures generally have darkvision. So your darkvision isn't any more of an advantage than theirs is. Taking that away levels the battlefield. So developing tactics and weapons that take advantage of the use of light can actually give an advantage against those that don't. This would include most monsters and predators.

So I also disagree with your characterization of our consideration of the drow or other underdark races using light as humanocentric. If you can only see 120' before darkness, and there's always a potential threat 130' away, the natural instinct for an intelligent creature is to increase visibility. And that is done with light. In earlier editions, there were spells like darklight which is light a light spell only for creatures with darkvision. That's an option, and probably a reasonable one, although it's also a spell that would tilt the advantage significantly against surface dwelling creatures. I personally don't have a problem with that. But I also don't have a problem with the number of races that have darkvision, nor do I have a problem with darkvision races using regular light as well. I think it would be more the norm than the exception. The main exceptions being situations requiring Stealth, although even then I think it would be used as an effective distraction.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
but for normal life light increases one's safety.
But there's nothing civilized or normal about the Underdark or the wilderness.

The only thing a light does is give warning to any travellers. If they have evil intent it only allows them to enter stealth/prowl/assassinate mode before you get a chance to spot them (from your own darkened hidden scouting spot).

If you have darkvision, darkness is your friend. Hiding is much more effective than light.

It is much better to have travellers just continue in casual travel mode, so you can detect them before they detect you.

I'd fully expect the only communities to use lights to be:
* the ones that can't hide (from being so large, noisy, well-known or just weird)
* the ones that feel safe
* the ones that are large enough to withstand localized attacks
and then the not-so-wise ones:
* because you can't see in the dark and irrationally feel safer in the light
* because you are careless and lazy, and simply want light and warmth to make your day simpler

Do note that all of them applies to human settlements.

There is no reason why an Hobgoblin outpost or Gnome village or Drow fort would be included. An Orc village might use light, since they are too stupid to strategize, and too confident to imagine being attacked.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Since a lit object in an otherwise dark space is so visible, I suspect that intelligent underdark would use light liberally to their advantage. Drow have an innate faerie fire and dancing lights, both of which are strategic spells in the dark for this very purpose.
If you mean once combat has started, sure.

There is still no reason to give your general presence away before combat, though.

Especially when your darkvision is double-range - if anything Drow would hope the encounter can take place entirely in the dark, since that gives them a HUGE advantage: just keep a 70+ ft distance, and you're essentially invincible.
 

The Old Crow

Explorer
I'd fully expect the only communities to use lights to be:
* the ones that can't hide (from being so large, noisy, well-known or just weird)
* the ones that feel safe
* the ones that are large enough to withstand localized attacks
and then the not-so-wise ones:
* because you can't see in the dark and irrationally feel safer in the light
* because you are careless and lazy, and simply want light and warmth to make your day simpler

Do note that all of them applies to human settlements.

I am beginning to wonder if what I should do is give a bonus to night blind races when they are in bright light. Like a +2 to perception, investigation, and initiative in well lit areas. Then it would make sense for them to feel safer in the light, and pull out those torches to stave off the dark.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I am beginning to wonder if what I should do is give a bonus to night blind races when they are in bright light. Like a +2 to perception, investigation, and initiative in well lit areas. Then it would make sense for them to feel safer in the light, and pull out those torches to stave off the dark.
By "night blind" races you mean Humans, right?

I think you're attacking this from the wrong end. There is nothing wrong with humans lighting their villages, and there is nothing wrong with the fear they feel when unseen marauders pick them off one by one from out of the darkness.

If there's a problem from the player's end it is that 5e gives darkvision to too many player races - making humans (halflings, dragonborn) the exception rather than the rule (as opposed to every edition before it). Switch elves (and half elves) over/back to low-light vision and that problem is pretty much solved.

From the monsters end, the solution is simply to not assume they will make things easy for intruders (with darkvision or without) by lighting lights. By sticking to the darkness you no longer give advanced warning of your existence to others that you yourself know nothing about. Instead you greatly increase the chances of them blundering into your darkvision range (or even hearing range) unprepared.

The final piece of the puzzle revolves around human rogues. They are fine in a campaign centred on human interaction, where orcs and drow can be caught out in the open, and perhaps even during daytime. If your campaign features lots of demihuman interaction, and often delves into dungeons, caves and perhaps even the Underdark, don't play a human rogue unless your Wizard is generous with Darkvision spells. Or simply play a Dwarf or Goblin scout.
 

Lanliss

Explorer
But there's nothing civilized or normal about the Underdark or the wilderness.

The only thing a light does is give warning to any travellers. If they have evil intent it only allows them to enter stealth/prowl/assassinate mode before you get a chance to spot them (from your own darkened hidden scouting spot).

If you have darkvision, darkness is your friend. Hiding is much more effective than light.

It is much better to have travellers just continue in casual travel mode, so you can detect them before they detect you.

I'd fully expect the only communities to use lights to be:
* the ones that can't hide (from being so large, noisy, well-known or just weird)
* the ones that feel safe
* the ones that are large enough to withstand localized attacks
and then the not-so-wise ones:
* because you can't see in the dark and irrationally feel safer in the light
* because you are careless and lazy, and simply want light and warmth to make your day simpler

Do note that all of them applies to human settlements.

There is no reason why an Hobgoblin outpost or Gnome village or Drow fort would be included. An Orc village might use light, since they are too stupid to strategize, and too confident to imagine being attacked.

This list makes no sense. "Can't see in the dark and irrationally feel safer in the light"? How is it irrational to want to see? "Careless and lazy", applied by default to human settlements?

The vast majority of all races are not in a 24/7 Military mode. They don't have curfew, or a Blackout time. I would hate to walk around in a constant semi-darkness, unable to see any color and needing to squint really hard to actually see anything beyond a blurry blob. I imagine that any non-military station, like a random village or a City that is not in the middle of a War, would have lights. Not because they are lazy, or because they "irrationally" feel safer in the light, but because they actually need the light to accomplish things beyond walking in a straight line.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
But there's nothing civilized or normal about the Underdark or the wilderness.

The only thing a light does is give warning to any travellers. If they have evil intent it only allows them to enter stealth/prowl/assassinate mode before you get a chance to spot them (from your own darkened hidden scouting spot).

If you have darkvision, darkness is your friend. Hiding is much more effective than light.

It is much better to have travellers just continue in casual travel mode, so you can detect them before they detect you.

I'd fully expect the only communities to use lights to be:
* the ones that can't hide (from being so large, noisy, well-known or just weird)
* the ones that feel safe
* the ones that are large enough to withstand localized attacks
and then the not-so-wise ones:
* because you can't see in the dark and irrationally feel safer in the light
* because you are careless and lazy, and simply want light and warmth to make your day simpler

Do note that all of them applies to human settlements.

There is no reason why an Hobgoblin outpost or Gnome village or Drow fort would be included. An Orc village might use light, since they are too stupid to strategize, and too confident to imagine being attacked.

No, it's not the only thing. Light also illuminates things. And while darkvision is your friend when you're the one sneaking up on somebody, light is your friend to keep somebody else from doing so. So light does a whole lot more than announce your presence. Plus, sometimes announcing your presence is exactly what you want.

The Underdark is quite civilized. Drow have cities. Duergar have cities, etc. In a dark environment, even if you have darkvision. A city or outpost would probably illuminate an area out beyond the longest range of their weapons. I think orcs and goblin kin would be even more likely to use light because again it extends the range and the possibility (eliminates disadvantage) that they can see potential threats. The more primitive the culture, the more likely that there will be threats, and the more likely they will be to do what they can to reduce them.

Really, the more I think about it, only individuals or parties attempting to be stealthy would be concerned about using light.

A patrol isn't trying to be secret. They are just trying to maintain their authority over a given area. Announcing their presence, and at the same time removing the potential advantage of a sneaky creature. Again, my point is that there isn't likely assassins lying in wait around every turn. The majority of what the patrols are protecting against are the general monsters of the Underdark. The ones that light will help potentially drive off.

Travellers, such as caravans, I think would also use light for the same reasons. Extending their visibility beyond their normal infravision, while at the same time improving their vision. Again, it doesn't have to be bright light. For creatures with darkvision dim light is the same as bright light for us. But having mercenaries carrying light 150' ahead of the caravan not only provides a buffer for the caravan, but illuminates well beyond their normal range of vision. Yes, often the passages themselves will limit visibility, but the goal is to provide visibility for as far as possible.

An adventuring party attempting to sneak into a drow outpost or city is a very, very rare occurrence. They aren't developing tactics based on that type of occurrence. It's all about what the normal, everyday threats are. In an evil society, establishing the presence and power of the law is crucial for maintaining control. A 20-30 person patrol, mounted and unmounted, using light to announce their presence is a reminder of that power. Not just because the patrol is strong, but because they have the backing of the entire law. If the threat is some other intelligent race, spotting them from as far out as possible is also a huge benefit. Again, a normal patrol isn't concerned about being attacked, that just doesn't happen on a frequent basis. Evil societies tend to hold power by a combination of fear and show of strength. Announcing your presence by light wouldn't really be a concern in those conditions, it only has benefits.

When humans are in dim light, they are at a disadvantage. That is, their sight is impaired. So they do what they can to improve it.

The sight of a creature with darkvision in darkness is also impaired. So they would do what they could to improve it as well, unless the specific circumstances call for otherwise.

Actually, rather than reducing the number of creatures with darkvision, it's making me wonder if the creatures that are native to the Underdark shouldn't have even better darkvision. The reality is that most creatures native to the Underdark should have heightened senses of hearing and smell, and potentially have blindsight as well. I'll have to go through the MM and consider that a bit more...
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
If there's a problem from the player's end it is that 5e gives darkvision to too many player races - making humans (halflings, dragonborn) the exception rather than the rule (as opposed to every edition before it). Switch elves (and half elves) over/back to low-light vision and that problem is pretty much solved.

This is only true for 3e through 4e. Prior to that the same creatures that have darkvision in 5e had infravision. In fact, more races did, as half of halflings had infravision, and then many of those that were in the half that didn't had 30' infravision. Historically, elves have had low-light vision for about 13 years, and infra/darkvision for 26+ years, not including 5e.

It's only a problem for people who think it is, it's not a problem in the game design or world design, and therefore not a problem for all.

As I've stated before, I don't have a problem at all with elves and half-elves having darkvision. My only problem is that nocturnal animals and monsters don't, or at least don't have some sort of night vision like I suggested. But from a simplicity approach, I also have no problem with all of those creatures having darkvision.

The bottom line is that I think that elves are among the many creatures that have better eyesight than humans. As such, in the current ruleset, darkvision is the answer. This works without any problem for me because from OD&D through 2e that's what they had, but also because I just don't care that more player races have darkvision.

Initially I was fine with the switch in 3e, but now I'm wondering if it's really worth the trouble to add that in-between range. Particularly because I like even less that it creates a range of creatures that don't have the equivalent of dim light (disadvantage on Perception checks). They would either be able to see without hindrance (bright or dim light) or not at all (darkness). That bothers me a lot more.
 

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