D&D 5E Eliminating darkvision from most races

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
How do you figure that? (Assuming the sneaky rogue has darkvision of course)
If you're removing darkvision from (most) PC races, why would you assume that sneaky rogues have it?
The only thing darkvision does is to turn darkness into (dim) light. You can still hide even in lighted conditions, assuming there are plenty of cracks, crevices and stalagmites to hide in/behind.

What aspect of the NPC do you feel is changed compared to a human (non-darkvision) guard posted in a city, forest fort or similar during poor (dim) lighting conditions?

If PC races (ie - typically good/neutral races) don't have darkvision, but you don't change NPC races (ie - typically the evil/antagonistic races), then the evil races are heavily encouraged not to use light sources. Sure your foes are getting disadvantage to detect the rogue... but the rogue is automatically failing any check that requires sight.

In the normal scheme of things, having darkened outposts only helps defend against humans, halflings and lizardfolk. Unless you explicitly expect to face only those races, there's a serious tradeoff in having an outpost be lightless.

So if you're going to remove darkvision from most of the player races, you probably should remove it from most NPC races too: seeing in the dark should be the schtick around which an NPC race is built, not something that all evil NPCs have.

Non tool-using monsters are a different kettle of fish.
 

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Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Not all throwbacks to the old days are good. By that argument you wouldn't mind THAC0 either... ;)

No, if we look at fantasy games more generally, it's very common to separate elf night vision from dwarf "infravision". Low-light vision isn't some outlier or strange thing.

To me, that 3e adapted that was a very good thing indeed. Not that I would have said so at the time. It's actually not until now - with 5e - it's very clear that simplifying everything into darkvision goes a step too far.

It upends the balance - suddenly humans, halflings and dragonborn are exceptions. That also means your comparison is halting. In the good old days, humans were a much stronger norm. Playing a demihuman was more exotic then than now. This was even built right into the rules, with level limits for everybody except humans.

I'd argue that now in 5e more races need to lack darkvision.

Correct, not all throwbacks are good. But with only one type of low-light vision, elves would naturally receive it because they've always had superior vision. I can't comment on other RPGs specifically, although Pathfinder will naturally follow the 3.5e model, so I'd be interested in your references, although D&D lore would still indicate that they were originally designed with darkvision (infravision).

If you go with the 4e answer, there's the oddity that whenever there is at least some light available, those with low-light vision are the same as those with darkvision. Where there is "no" light, they are the same as those with normal vision. Sounds OK, but I still think it's a little strange that there is no middle point where they have disadvantage on their Perception checks like the others.

If it's the 3e version, then it depends on how you adjudicate darkvision. Does darkvision start where the light stops, or is it a straight 60' from the creature? If it's a straight 60', then a creature with low-light vision in the 3e mold can see better in a dungeon with low light than somebody with darkvision if the light source has a radius of more than 15'. For example, a hooded lantern with a radius of 30' bright, 30' dim would give somebody with low-light vision 60' of bright, and 60' of dim light, compared to the creature with darkvision who can now only see as far as a normal creature with 30' bright, 30' feet dim because that's the extent that their darkvision would work. Again it gets a bit strange.

The nightvision proposal keeps it very simple in that it works exactly like darkvision, other than not working in total darkness such as that underground with no light source.

All of this to reduce the number of creatures that have darkvision by two.

Your argument is that more need to lack darkvision, but you haven't explained why, other than you don't like the fact that there are more PC races that have it than don't. The fact is, there have always been more PC races that had superior vision than didn't, whether it was the OD&D to 2e version, the 3/3.5e version, or 4e version, of the core races, only humans and part of the halflings lacked it.

The original post had some specific flavor and mechanical reasons that he disliked it. [MENTION=6676774]bacon[/MENTION]-Bits points out that there doesn't seem to be a significant design cost to it, that it's more of a flavor choice, and I detailed the mechanics in detail. There are few circumstances where it will really matter, which is why the designers probably did away with the extra complexity.

Obviously you're welcome to do what you'd like. I'm just trying to understand, after the actual differences between darkvision/no darkvision have been outlined, what real benefit is gained by adding complexity of another type of vision. I am always in favor of altering things based on your campaign setting lore, and if that's the only reason, that's fine but it's not a compelling argument that there's an inherent problem with the current rules system that needs to be "fixed."

Playing a human was the norm back then, and you're right, they helped enforce that with rules like class and level limits. I do maintain some of that in my campaign, for example dwarves have magic resistance like they used to, and they can't be sorcerers. They can be wizards, but they have some disadvantages as such.

But ultimately, it's more a question of the world. My players all have at least 3 characters, and two of them have to be human. We don't have a mechanical rule to support that, it's just a matter of demographics in our campaign. The village that the players come from is 85%+ human. There are some travelers, and a few natives that are non-human, with halflings being the largest group. We also don't have dragonborn at all, tieflings are quite different (and virtually indistinguishable from humans like they used to be), and gnomes and half-orcs are NPC races only at this point. Of course, there are times where only the non-humans are playing in a given session, and that's fine. Our goal with this approach is to populate the world with a cross-section of characters that reflects the demographics themselves, thus making their non-human characters more "special."

That doesn't mean everybody should play this way. But if your campaign allows all of the races in the PHB, and especially if it includes those from other sources like Volo's, and you allow the players to freely select them, then you may not have many, if any, humans in your party.
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
Oh, nice suggestion. I might have to try this. So how would dim light work exactly? Would a human have disadvantage on perception checks, and low-light creatures not? Are there any other mechanics differences?

My homebrew rule for it is;

Low Light Vision: You can see in dim light as if it were bright light.

That's it - no Darkvision element to it.

As previously stated, this makes such things as having the Warlock's 'Devil's Sight' more exotic and useful and makes darkness a thing to be feared again. Monsters with Darkvision are once again scary... although humanoid races who are not primarily underground dwelling get Low Light Vision instead of Darkvision as well in my games.

Ubiquitous Darkvision is bad in my opinion - and flies in the face of most fantasy literature and rpg art - when is the last time you saw a picture of a Drow city that wasn't glowing purple or green or a Dwarf Miner without a lantern?

I will mod all my games like this going forwards.
 
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machineelf

Explorer
My homebrew rule for it is;

Low Light Vision: You can see in dim light as if it were bright light.

That's it - no Darkvision element to it.

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I really, really like low-light vision for elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc., where dim light is like bright light, but darkness is still darkness, and the only player races that have darkvision are drow and snirvneblin (and I don't let my players play drow, usually).

This makes a lot of sense to me. I don't make major rules changes in the middle of a campaign, but the next campaign I run I am going to implement this.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
If you're removing darkvision from (most) PC races, why would you assume that sneaky rogues have it?
Sorry, I'm getting you shift the goalposts here.

I'm not advocating the removal of darkvision from PC races, or even from most PC races. Just enough PC races so the entire party won't have darkvision. The occasional PC with darkvision does no harm (and indeed, as is discussed, isn't overly powerful either).

But I firmly believe that in a world with darkvision, the benefits of a scout to have it, is enormous. Again, not that darkvision itself is so powerful (assuming the scout is "tethered" to a party using light), but that the difference compared to a scout without darkvision is.

I'm sure there are many campaigns with completely human scouts, and that they perform well even without darkvision. But that kind of assumes a human-centric campaign, an overland campaign, a daytime campaign. The kind of campaign perfectly encapsulated by the classic AD&D covers.

In a campaign featuring many darkvision-enabled adversaries, in an underground campaign, in a skulking around in the twilight (or even outright darkness) campaign, you simply can't be expected to do your job without darkvision.

So far so good. That's my take on things.

What I don't agree to is that you need to remove darkvision from monsters and enemy humanoids. I don't agree to it per se, and I don't agree to the implication that fixing darkvision is a complicated thing that needs many or large adjustments.

So I think you're overreacting: I think you oversimplifying the problem and overcomplicating the solution.

No, just because the party will (and perhaps even should?) use light, doesn't mean you must assume the party scout won't have darkvision.

And no, just because 5E has probably tipped the balance towards DV-enabled PC races too much doesn't mean you need to overreact by taking DV away from "most" player races.

And no, you don't need to mess around with NPC races or monsters either.

---

Instead, I firmly believe that y'all can get where you want to be (assuming you read this thread because at some level you agree to the OP) with small and measured adjustments.

There is no need to change NPCs. There is no need to change monsters. There is no concern the game balance is at risk.

Just switch Elves (and Half-Elves) over to night vision, and give that a try, before making any more profound changes. Chances are you might save yourself a lot of work :)

---

If that doesn't work, try another very simple approach.

Just talk to your players. :)

Tell them what I told mine when I was about to start Out of the Abyss:

"This campaign heavily relies on your characters wanting to get back to the surface. Your characters are supposed to find the Underdark an alien and scary place.

Therefore, I ask that you primarily choose between surface races, and try to avoid choosing native inhabitants of the Underdark. What I especially ask of you is that at least one of you choose a race without darkvision, so that the party relies on light.

I don't want to outright prohibit any character concept, and I don't want to restrict your choices. I just want you to accept that you can't all play a renegade Drow, or a Svirfneblin or Duergar. And you can't all play Dwarves or Elves either. At least one of you should choose human or halfling (or dragonborn, I guess); preferably most of you."

As you can see, this leaves things open for maximum freedom of choice.

And especially one thing: if any player wanted to play as a scout (nobody chose the Rogue class in the end), I would definitely not condemn that player to playing a scout without darkvision. Not in a Underdark-themed campaign.

Regards
 

CapnZapp

Legend
PS. Here's the party I ended up with.

One human Eldritch Knight
One human Tempest Cleric
One halfling Fighter/Ranger
One tiefling Warlock
One elf Shadow Monk

As you can see, things ended up pretty well.

The Warlock and Monk has darkvision (I hadn't yet come up with my idea to switch elves to LL-vision; this was well over a year ago). Both have had great use out of it, but most such use has benefited the party more than the individual character (which is the core of the "DV isn't that powerful" argument behind the design team's decision to not cost it very highly). DS.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
@Ibranteloth, I found your post well-reasoned and therefore I awarded it an XP.

But I also found it very long :) Could you please repeat any questions, if any were meant for me?
 

CapnZapp

Legend
My homebrew rule for it is;

Low Light Vision: You can see in dim light as if it were bright light.

That's it - no Darkvision element to it.
That's pretty much it.

All I would like to add is that creatures with low-light vision treat moonlight and starlight as dim light.

(Not trying to say the rules either do or do not already do this. I'm not making any statements either for or against any aspect of the stealth and hiding rules here - they're far to convoluted and ambigous for me to want to walk into that discussion. No, please treat the above merely as a clarification of intent.)
 

pming

Legend
Hiya!

I still run "darkvision" as "infravision", in a nutshell. To put simply, if there is a light source nearby that is at least candle strength or greater, that "takes over" the visual department for the creature. If that candle light is snuffed out, it takes a round or two (depending on brightness) for "darkvision" to take over. I also treat darkvision as just that...a vision...meaning not everyone has exactly "30 feet" or "60 feet". Some can't see past 15', others can see up to 75' or 80'...it's variable. The listed range is "typical for the average creature". Also, 'darkvision' is pretty much greyscale and is useless for things like discerning detail, reading, or recognizing specific individuals at any distance other than "close" (think non-green nightvision goggles). It's useful when hunting in the dark and when the lights go out underground.

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

If I remember rightly, in 3.5, low-light seemed pretty well balanced with Darkvision.
Darkvision worked in absolute darkness but had limited range, whereas low-light allowed normal vision in most outdoor situations at night, and gave a boost to light sources in absolute darkness.

How do you figure that? (Assuming the sneaky rogue has darkvision of course)

If you're removing darkvision from (most) PC races, why would you assume that sneaky rogues have it?

Sorry, I'm getting you shift the goalposts here.

I'm not advocating the removal of darkvision from PC races, or even from most PC races. Just enough PC races so the entire party won't have darkvision. The occasional PC with darkvision does no harm (and indeed, as is discussed, isn't overly powerful either).
That doesn't really address Saeviomagy's point though. The more PC races that you remove darkvision from, the less and less likely that the party scout is going to have darkvision. He's not talking about the entire party, just the scout, and questioning your earlier assumption that they will have darkvision.
I get that you're aware that you shifted the goalposts from just scout to entire party to discuss a point, but you don't actually get back to answering the question asked.

But I firmly believe that in a world with darkvision, the benefits of a scout to have it, is enormous. Again, not that darkvision itself is so powerful (assuming the scout is "tethered" to a party using light), but that the difference compared to a scout without darkvision is.

I'm sure there are many campaigns with completely human scouts, and that they perform well even without darkvision. But that kind of assumes a human-centric campaign, an overland campaign, a daytime campaign. The kind of campaign perfectly encapsulated by the classic AD&D covers.

In a campaign featuring many darkvision-enabled adversaries, in an underground campaign, in a skulking around in the twilight (or even outright darkness) campaign, you simply can't be expected to do your job without darkvision.
That is pretty much the point Saeviomagy was making: A scout without access to darkvision is going to have trouble, particularly if many of the races that the party will be going up against do have darkvision.
And the more player races you remove darkvision from, and the less foe races you remove it from, the more likely your scout is going to be in that position.

No, just because the party will (and perhaps even should?) use light, doesn't mean you must assume the party scout won't have darkvision.
But likewise, you cannot assume that the party scout will have darkvision either.
Unless you tend to pick the magic items the party finds, or they're leaning heavily towards the Optimisation style of playing, that isn't a useful assumption.
 

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