Elminster/Time Stop Errata

[kreynolds]

Not really.

Nice try, but you still completely skipped over D&Dg.

 

[Umbran]

Nice try, but you still completely skipped over D&Dg.

I'm reasonable enough not to attempt to speak on the content of a book I don't have. Is there anything in there that prohibits Mystra from behaving in such a way? Is there even an official D&Dg writeup for her?

However, since you bring it up, let's remember a basic tenet of WotC design philosophy - The Core rules are the only ones that are "required". You should be able to use the FRCS and other Forgotten Realms books without having D&Dg. The rules within D&Dg are thus optional, rather than standard - I can just as reasonably use Upper Krust's rules, my own rules, or no rules at all.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think there are two reasonable interpretations here:

1) Elminster is immune to Time Stop. The definition of that means that when he casts Time Stop on himself, it doesn't work.

2) Elminster is immune to Temporal Status.

I think there is one unreasonable interpretations here:

3) Elminister gets special powers when someone else casts Time Stop, either to stop them from casting it, or to be included in it's effect.

#1 is reasonable, but doesn't make sense. Elminster would want to be able to cast Time Stop on himself if necessary.

#2 is reasonable, and it makes sense that the author just screwed up and gave him the wrong immunity.

#3 is unreasonable since the feat does not give this power, hence, any other NPC or PC that purchased it would not get this ability. Elminster should not be an exception. Feats and magic should work the same for all PCs and NPCs. Period. No exceptions.

If Mystra wanted Elminister to have ability #3 in a given campaign, that's fine. It should just not be written up the way it was because that actually means #1.

 

[kreynolds]

Is there anything in there that prohibits Mystra from behaving in such a way?

That depends. Deities have to follow spellcasting rules just as anyone else. Though their abilities are certainly better, they are still governed by rules.

Is there even an official D&Dg writeup for her?

You like to point out that D&Dg is not a core book. I'd like to point out that Mystra isn't even a "core" god. She's a non-core god from a non-core god book from a non-core campaign setting.

The writeup for her is in Faiths and Pantheons.

However, since you bring it up, let's remember a basic tenet of WotC design philosophy - The Core rules are the only ones that are "required". You should be able to use the FRCS and other Forgotten Realms books without having D&Dg. The rules within D&Dg are thus optional, rather than standard

Yes, you can use the FRCS and other Forgotten Realms books just fine without having D&Dg. However, if you intend to use a god in the context that D&Dg covers, such as a fight with your players, for example, you can use the book or not. If you don't use the book, that's fine, so long as you acknowledge that you're running your game outta your butt, so to speak.

I can just as reasonably use Upper Krust's rules, my own rules, or no rules at all.

Right. I would however, like to remind you that we are in a rules thread, so none of the things you mentioned apply at all. That's the bottom line, really.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Stop quarelling girls, you're both pretty!


Umbran is right: both F&P and D&Dg contain optional rules. You don't need them to play D&D properly, and you don't need them to play F&P properly. So if elminster is indeed immune to time stop (which would maybe mean that he could not be "cheated of 1d4 rounds", because he wouldn't choose an immunity that would not help him at all), that means that Mystra makes it so. There are no core rules that state how gods behave - and if I recall properly, the DMG states that they are far more powerful than any mortal and can more or less do what they want. And allowing someone to have no ill effects of a certain 9th-level spell is nothing compared to things like creating own demiplanes or whole races. They don't have to follow the spellcasting rules, at least not when considering only core rules.

On the other hand, though, you must consider that WotC doesn't intend to make their "official gods" behave as they want - especially if they just released 2 books on how gods behave and what stats they have. The write-ups of characters in the Rulebooks are considered to follow all the published material about the Realms. The Forgotten Realms, as they are presented in the rule books, have a canon storyline. This storyline doesn't contain an all-mighty entity called "Dungeon Master" as the hightest instance. It contains a bunch of gods and an Overpower (Lord Ao), who maintains the balance (and he himself reports to a higher entity, but within the Realmsspace he is all-mighty). Ao wouldn't want Mystra to mess about with the laws of the cosmology, doing whatever she wants. Especially not making senseless rules. So Mystra (and all the other gods) have to obay the rules from F&P (and probably D&Dg, too)

Now, being immune to Time Stop can only be nonsense: Either you are immune to its effects, meaning you cannot profit from it, not cast it, or another spellcaster cannot gain benefits from it against you. Which is nonsense, too, as the spell speeds up it's caster, and does nothing to the enemies who seem frozen.

So, Elminster is clearly not meant to be immune to Time Stop. As some errata chaged that into Temporal Stasis, it's fine

 

[ruleslawyer]

Except that the errata never made the change, at least in print. But who cares? Rich Baker and SKR both said on the WotC boards that it should be changed to temporal stasis, and the Sage seems to agree. That's enough authorial intent for me, at least.

Note that the time stop immunity (which the Magister also has, BTW) is a 2e artefact, from a time when TS actually stopped time in a certain radius, rather than just super-speeding the caster. In any event, if you want El to be so favored of Mystra that his enemies' TSs fail against him, just give him the bloody Spell Stowaway (TS) feat, and have done with.

And BTW, Umbran: Your suggestion is absolutely a house rule, not because of what Mystra can or cannot do, but because of the way in which the Chosen spell immunities are described. From the FRCS:

[The Chosen] is immune to one spell of each level 1st through 9th just as if the spell immunity spell were constantly in effect upon them.

From the description of the spell immunity spell:

The warded creature effectively has unbeatable SR regarding the specified spell or spells. Naturally, that spell immunity doesn’t protect a creature from spells for which SR doesn’t apply.

Check the Spell Resistance entry for time stop and tell me that a Chosen's immunity applies.

 

[Umbran]

And BTW, Umbran: Your suggestion is absolutely a house rule, not because of what Mystra can or cannot do, but because of the way in which the Chosen spell immunities are described.

Um, take another look at what I've said. I'm not weighing in on the Chosen spell immunities. I'm hijacking and making it a thread on what rules, if any, the gods must follow. Whether Mystra can keep Eliminster from getting caught with his pants down is only an example.

 

[Umbran]

That depends. Deities have to follow spellcasting rules just as anyone else. Though their abilities are certainly better, they are still governed by rules.

...if you're running by D&Dg rules, yes. If I recall the Faiths and Pantheons web enhancement correctly, this is not necessarily true otherwise.

Okay, so she's a FRCS goddess, writeup in F&P. Is there anything in her writeup that would prevent her from casting a Time Stop on Elminster whenever she wanted, to keep him from being caught in the lurch?

If you're running her under D&Dg rules, I think there's specific deific powers that enable such a thing, if she's of high enough Divine Rank.

Right. I would however, like to remind you that we are in a rules thread, so none of the things you mentioned apply at all. That's the bottom line, really.

*shrug* While one of the things I mentioned is certainly a House Rules thing, using No Rules is actually effectively the Core method, and so is applicable

And what, Upper Krust's rules aren't applicable in a Rules Forum discussion? How very Wotc-centric, non-d20-PC of you!

 

[kreynolds]

...if you're running by D&Dg rules, yes.

Faiths & Pantheons simply repeats the same rules form Deities and Demigods.

If you're running her under D&Dg rules, I think there's specific deific powers that enable such a thing, if she's of high enough Divine Rank.

I would think so, but I couldn't find anything that would allow it.

*shrug* While one of the things I mentioned is certainly a House Rules thing, using No Rules is actually effectively the Core method, and so is applicable

As I am so fond of saying, "Rule-0 does not necessarily equal a logical nor well thought out decision."

And what, Upper Krust's rules aren't applicable in a Rules Forum discussion?

No. They're not. That's why they're in the house rules thread.

How very Wotc-centric, non-d20-PC of you!

Nah. Just realistic.

Actually, there's something I haven't seen mentioned yet, and those are the Divine Intervention variant rules from the WotC site. Those would allow what you want to do.

 

[KarinsDad]

Okay, so she's a FRCS goddess, writeup in F&P. Is there anything in her writeup that would prevent her from casting a Time Stop on Elminster whenever she wanted, to keep him from being caught in the lurch?

There is nothing stopping her from giving him this ability.

But, if she does, WotC would have called it something other than Immunity to Time Stop since the Spell Immunity feat has a specific meaning of which this is not.

Nobody is arguing that she cannot do that if she wants, they are arguing that she cannot do it this way according to the rules.

That's like saying that he has a Weapon Focus feat, but that it is +20 to hit. Well, if it is +20 to hit, it is not a Weapon Focus feat. It may be some other feat or ability, but it is not a Weapon Focus feat.