Elven Chain vs. Mithral Shirt... WTF?

[Brekki]

Elven Chain = Mithral Chain Mail

Chain Mail = +5 Armor, +2 Max Dex, -5 Armor Check, 30 % Spell Failure ... combined with :
Mithral = +2 Max Dex, +3 Armor Check (to max 0), -10% Spell Failure

= +5 Armor, +4 Max Dex, -2 Armor Check, 20% Spell Failure


Same goes for the Dwarven Plate, only the -4 Armor Check Penalty in DMG is an error, it should be -3.

 

[Vinyafod]

Elven Chain = Mithral Chain Mail

Except that:
Elven Chain weighs 20 pounds, a mithral chain mail weighs 40 pounds.
Mithral shirt weighs 10 pounds, a chainshirt made from mithral weighs 25 pounds.
Dwarven Plate weighs 25 pounds, a mithral full plate 50 pounds.

An error as well or is there some reason behind that?

 

[Thain]

I've noticed these differences in the past, I just attributed it to the *named* Elven Chain and Dwarven Plate being made by superior craftsmen.

Thus, Mithral Plate is one thing, Master Work Mithral Plate another... Dwarven Plate, having been crafted to a point beyond masterwork; is so rare, so well made, and so beautiful that it is something else entirely.

After all, a base nonmagic set of Elf Chain or Dwarf Plate is considered a rare magic item. That means you shouldn't just be able to find them in any goblin cavern. In Low- to Mid-Magic worlds [PLUG]*cough* Krynn *cough* [/PLUG] they are the kind of thing I'd feel perfectly justified in not lettign my player have access to until 6-8th level, and magic verisons wouldn't show up until much later.

But, as always, YMMV

 

[drnuncheon]

So, shields and all items that are NOT armor weigh half as much. As a logical conclusion... mithral armor weighs just as much as standard armor. In the case of a full plate 50 pounds.

Ah, but that's where the logic is flawed. If I say to you "a mithril mace weighs half as much" but I don't tell you that there is any change in weight in mithril armor, is it really that logical to assume that there is no change in weight? Especially when I say that mithril armor is less encumbering? And when I can show you several examples of mithril armor that do weigh less?

I think you're getting unnecessarily hung up on the fact that it said 'non-armor and shield items weigh half as much'. The reason armor & shields aren't included in that statement is because they don't all weigh half as much - thwy weigh somewhere between half and a third as much.

As for the "superior masterwork" idea, I'd be a lot more inclined to believe that if the prices for a mithril shirt or shield weren't the same ones as you got for adding the mithril price to the item in question.

J

 

[Vinyafod]

If I say to you "a mithril mace weighs half as much" but I don't tell you that there is any change in weight in mithril armor, is it really that logical to assume that there is no change in weight?

You're correct. That wouldn't be logical at all, because you gave no more information than: "mithral maces weigh half as much."
The book on the other hand gives us the more information than just that. It says non-armor items and shields weigh half as much. They effectively say: all items except armor. Why would you say non-armor and shields if you meant metallic armor as well?
If I told you "all non-green-colored cars are high quality products" you would probably (not only would but could as well) assume that all green colored cars are crappy. After all, why should I say all non-green-colored if I really meant all cars no matter the color? (no offense meant to drivers/ owners of green cars )

Well, nevermind. Using common sense, it is best to go with the weights given by the example items. As I already said, it makes absolutely no sense why one item made primarily of metal has half the weight (longsword for instance) but the other (metallic armor) also made primarily from metal does not.

My concern was that I missed some passage/ rule/ whatever, that explained why the presented items have the given weights. I guess that is not the case. So all power to the 25 pound platemail

 

[Dakhran the Dark]

That's actually a logical fallacy, called denial of the antecedent:

All x are y.
It is not x.
Therefore, it is not y.

Filling in the blanks:

All non-armor items are half weight.
It's armor.
Therefore, it's not half weight.

Personally, I'd go with the armor being at least half weight, since the category is reduced to one less...

 

[The Souljourner]

I never understood that qualification... how can armor be a special case?

Make a barrel out of mithral, it weighs half as much as an identical steel barrel. Now bang both into the shape of a breastplate, and suddenly the weight of the mithral breastplate doubles... WTF?

In every campaign I've been in this has been ruled an error in the book and armor is given half weight as well. It makes absolutely no sense otherwise.

I think the Dwarven Plate and Elven Chain take into account the half weight as well, which is why dwarven plate weighs half as much as regular plate and elven chainmail weighs half as much as normal chainmail.

The rest of the differences are just errors.

-The Souljourner

 

[StGabriel]

Ahh, but psychology and linguistics are involved, not just logic.


Don't get me wrong, logic is great and all, but a fair amount of the stuff we say isn't necessarily logical.


For example, if my friend asks me to come watch them perform in a concert and I say:



"I'll go tonight or tomorrow night."



In most contexts it would be completely reasonable to assume that this meant that I would not go both nights. This is despite the fact that the logical def'n of "or" would have no drothers with me doing exactly tha and still being truthful. In this case, the or is impliclity an exclusive and it's just an idiosyncratic use of language.



If I were to say, "Some of you will get prizes." It would be fair to assume that not all of you wll, even though it would not be logically inconsistent if you all did.



Given situations such as these, people will agree with my "reasonable" interpretations most of the time if tested. This isn't because they're stupid, it's because our language is complicated and doesn't always map well to logic.



In this case, it might very well be reasonable to read deeply into an exclusion, or not, it just depends on the context.

On a related note. I was walking across a parking lot a while back. I saw a sign that said:



"Warning: icy and hazardous conditions exist."



Of course I understood what it was supposed to mean. I still laughed for a good half a minute though. My GF thought I was nuts. *giggle*



Anyhow . . . now that you think I'm nuts, I'll sign off.



---

StGabriel, the Taoist saint.

 

[Caliban]

Armor is half weight just like everything else made out of mithril.

The examples of mithril armor are half weight, and that text in the mithril section is just pointing out that non-armor items are also half weight. It's just not very clear about it. (Besides, there is no logical reason why the mithril used to create the armor would suddenly double in weight at the point it switched from being a "non-armor" raw material into actual armor. )

 

[StGabriel]

Rather than editing again and exacerbating the problem, let me just apologize here for my bloated post. I don't know why, but Opera (my web browser) or the forum itself are somehow conspiring to make my edits FULL of white space.

Sorry.

---
StGabriel, the Taoist saint.