Emerald Press looking for artists
- Thread starter LrdApoc
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HellHound
ENnies winner and NOT Scrappy Doo
Re: Man. . . . .
That sucks, rpace.
But now you have seen a company make good on a "when we have money" promise.
Ambient Inc. now pays all our artists, including the one who did free work for us before, including back payments as a thank you for the art he provided for us for free.
rpace said:
That sucks, rpace.
But now you have seen a company make good on a "when we have money" promise.
Ambient Inc. now pays all our artists, including the one who did free work for us before, including back payments as a thank you for the art he provided for us for free.
HellHound
ENnies winner and NOT Scrappy Doo
Also note that these gentlemen are NOT advertising for a professional illustrator, but for someone who wants to volunteer their time.
I don't think it's the right thing to turn around and be so rude to someone for posting such a request.
But then again, I'm Canadian, so I expect good manners in general, and moreso from 'professionals'.
I don't think it's the right thing to turn around and be so rude to someone for posting such a request.
But then again, I'm Canadian, so I expect good manners in general, and moreso from 'professionals'.
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LrdApoc said:
The defensive responses are unwarranted -- I am certain the offer was made with the best intentions.
The thing you missed in my duly noted comments, is that you're not really giving artists an opportunity, you're asking for free art.
The dangled carrot in your initial message wasn't opportunity, but of the possibility of paying work after doing quality work on deadline. No comment on what the compensation for such work would be.
It's a great deal for you, it's a bad deal for the artists.
It's kinda like getting someone to finish your basement for free with the understanding that you might, if they're good enough and you ever have the money, pay them to paint your house later.
If you do end up with the money and do pay them to paint your house later and compensate them for the work on the basement, I guess the deal worked out. If it doesn't, somebody got a finished basement for free.
If you want art and don't have the cash, bring an artist in as a partner. Treat him or her like a professional -- treat them as you'd like to be treated.
You're obviously a would-be professional investing time in hopes of a return later on, why couldn't you make that offer to a would-be preofessional illustrator?
You'd probably get better results in the long run.
~Richard
Re: Re: Man. . . . .
That's wonderful to hear.
Really, despite the responses Storn and I have received, I am happy to hear when something like that works out.
Now I can say I've only heard of one company that made good on such a claim in 14 years. I cannot begin to start counting the number of would-be companies, with more wishes than cash, that made similar offers only to disintegrate after work had been done and the money never materialised for print.
However, that doesn't change anything. It's still a bad deal for the artist.
Include him in the future of the company and he's investing in himself not in someone else's company.
~Richard
HellHound said:
That's wonderful to hear.
Really, despite the responses Storn and I have received, I am happy to hear when something like that works out.
Now I can say I've only heard of one company that made good on such a claim in 14 years. I cannot begin to start counting the number of would-be companies, with more wishes than cash, that made similar offers only to disintegrate after work had been done and the money never materialised for print.
However, that doesn't change anything. It's still a bad deal for the artist.
Include him in the future of the company and he's investing in himself not in someone else's company.
~Richard
HellHound said:Also note that these gentlemen are NOT advertising for a professional illustrator, but for someone who wants to volunteer their time.
I don't think it's the right thing to turn around and be so rude to someone for posting such a request.
But then again, I'm Canadian, so I expect good manners in general, and moreso from 'professionals'.
Sigh. . . .
I guess we could split hairs over whether "professional-looking" is the same as "professional", but since art is entirely about looking. . .
I disagree that pointing out a bad deal when I see it is somehow rude. As I wrote in my initial message, I do believe the offer was made sincerely.
I'm amused that, when discussing a business matter, being polite is more important than being business-like to be considered a professional.
~Richard Pace
Richard,
This posting is not a negotiation, merely a probe. Now I understand if you would be reserved, obviously you've been burned a few times. I have as well, both as a writer and artist, however this forum is not where the discussion of our business practices takes place.
Every artist I have spoken with understands the investment, as I am involved as a partner who started as an artist. I am not in the business as a person or as a professional in promising what I cannot deliver.
So saying: "HEY ARTISTS! COME HERE AND WORK FOR BIG BUCKS!" would not be fair. I am upfront and honest about the situation. Including the for pay opportunities.
My main point with this thread has been to generate interest and to give interested artists a contact to ask the questions you legitimately are concerned about.
As I said, I understand if you are putting yourself out there to warn off people you feel may be potentialy shafted, but at least you should investigate the situation before hindering a good faith opportunity.
Adding your professional experience to the thread did nothing more than discredit our intentions, your opinions may be well based, but what interest did you hope to serve?
Sorry, as a professional artist and someone who has an interest in the game industry I'd hope you would support people starting out, in any form be it as publishers or artists.
Thank you for your interest in our request for artists, I'm sorry you feel it is unreasonable.
Shawn "LrdApoc" Sines
Art Director and Lead Artist for Emerald Press
This posting is not a negotiation, merely a probe. Now I understand if you would be reserved, obviously you've been burned a few times. I have as well, both as a writer and artist, however this forum is not where the discussion of our business practices takes place.
Every artist I have spoken with understands the investment, as I am involved as a partner who started as an artist. I am not in the business as a person or as a professional in promising what I cannot deliver.
So saying: "HEY ARTISTS! COME HERE AND WORK FOR BIG BUCKS!" would not be fair. I am upfront and honest about the situation. Including the for pay opportunities.
My main point with this thread has been to generate interest and to give interested artists a contact to ask the questions you legitimately are concerned about.
As I said, I understand if you are putting yourself out there to warn off people you feel may be potentialy shafted, but at least you should investigate the situation before hindering a good faith opportunity.
Adding your professional experience to the thread did nothing more than discredit our intentions, your opinions may be well based, but what interest did you hope to serve?
Sorry, as a professional artist and someone who has an interest in the game industry I'd hope you would support people starting out, in any form be it as publishers or artists.
Thank you for your interest in our request for artists, I'm sorry you feel it is unreasonable.
Shawn "LrdApoc" Sines
Art Director and Lead Artist for Emerald Press
LrdApoc said:
Considering that I have now repeatedly written that I'm certain you have only the best of intentions in this, how am I casting aspersions on your intentions?
The deal your offering is a bad one -- in spite of your intentions.
And, to be fair, if I stop one would-be professional from making a bad deal and getting burned then I've done a good thing.
Despite you insistance that I should have researched your offer befoe speaking, what evidence could I have uncovered? That your nice guys with potential and intend to do right by those that help you out? I've already assumed that. All that aside, it's still a bad deal.
There are other considerations as well -- let's say you do gain a decent financial foothold, at what point do you consider the investment of those artists who contributed to the construction of the company repaid?
I don't need or want an answer to that question, because it can't be answered if the artist is a freelancer.
If he or she is a partner in the future of the company, then the return on the investment is inherent in that deal.
And yes, I do have an interest in the health and future of the industry. However, I believe the health and future of the industry is better served by start-ups with the ability to compensate its freelancers.
If that makes me a bad guy, so be it.
~Richard Pace
Okay, fair enough. I understand and accept your points.
I know you are not being a 'bad guy', and I did not mean to infer that.
So let's make this a positive debate. You have already pointed out that making artists partners in the company is a good reward for a starting investment. I agree obviously as that is my arrangement.
What more would you expect of a group of people who have the intiative to start something with little to no starting capitol? How can we make the deal more equitable and fair?
I'm not paying lip service here.. I made the original offer and I understand the perspective you offer, so I'm asking for your help to make this a reasonable offer. What are your suggestions?
If you would prefer we can make this a private discussion. You have well reasoned points and I think discussing this could only help me present the situation with fair compensation involved.
Shawn
I know you are not being a 'bad guy', and I did not mean to infer that.
So let's make this a positive debate. You have already pointed out that making artists partners in the company is a good reward for a starting investment. I agree obviously as that is my arrangement.
What more would you expect of a group of people who have the intiative to start something with little to no starting capitol? How can we make the deal more equitable and fair?
I'm not paying lip service here.. I made the original offer and I understand the perspective you offer, so I'm asking for your help to make this a reasonable offer. What are your suggestions?
If you would prefer we can make this a private discussion. You have well reasoned points and I think discussing this could only help me present the situation with fair compensation involved.
Shawn
Cool!
Okay -- had you said from the outset you were looking for illustrator-partners in a fledgling company, I wouldn't have said a thing. I would have seen you as being on the right path for a low-to-no fund start-up.
Now, I understand, as should anyone entering into such a deal, that partner doesn't necessarily mean an equal share in contriolling the direction of the company.
From this point, two things become paramount; the busness plan and the contracts.
From this point I'm merely offering a possible structure to proceed. . . . understand that is worth exactly what you've paid for it --
You should have a reasonable idea how long and how many projects you will have completed prior to becoming a for-pay company.
An equitable system of shares for production should be implemented. The number of shares and how they are allocated should be pre-determined.
Require a minimum input within set periods, but allow for some personal or professional leeway. Those who fail to meet the minimum requirement have still earned their shares in the company, but will not be partners when the company leaves it's investment period.
At the end of your investment period you will have a concrete idea who really helped build the company and help you in making resource allocation decisions in the future.
Simply put, at the end of your investment period, you will know who walks and who just talks.
The partner shares can be broken down into straight percentages at this point -- each getting a share of the company profits over and above whatever rate the company is now paying for work/salary and what was agreed to be re-invested.
Contributors who failed to meet the minimum requirement would be given payment for their contributions at the first established rates as well as receive a one-time first year percentage of the annual profits. This would be the totallity of their compensation.
For artists and authors of complete works (especially those who do not become partners), a rights reversion x years after initial publication would be
a good move.
Hope this helps,
Richard
Okay -- had you said from the outset you were looking for illustrator-partners in a fledgling company, I wouldn't have said a thing. I would have seen you as being on the right path for a low-to-no fund start-up.
Now, I understand, as should anyone entering into such a deal, that partner doesn't necessarily mean an equal share in contriolling the direction of the company.
From this point, two things become paramount; the busness plan and the contracts.
From this point I'm merely offering a possible structure to proceed. . . . understand that is worth exactly what you've paid for it --
You should have a reasonable idea how long and how many projects you will have completed prior to becoming a for-pay company.
An equitable system of shares for production should be implemented. The number of shares and how they are allocated should be pre-determined.
Require a minimum input within set periods, but allow for some personal or professional leeway. Those who fail to meet the minimum requirement have still earned their shares in the company, but will not be partners when the company leaves it's investment period.
At the end of your investment period you will have a concrete idea who really helped build the company and help you in making resource allocation decisions in the future.
Simply put, at the end of your investment period, you will know who walks and who just talks.
The partner shares can be broken down into straight percentages at this point -- each getting a share of the company profits over and above whatever rate the company is now paying for work/salary and what was agreed to be re-invested.
Contributors who failed to meet the minimum requirement would be given payment for their contributions at the first established rates as well as receive a one-time first year percentage of the annual profits. This would be the totallity of their compensation.
For artists and authors of complete works (especially those who do not become partners), a rights reversion x years after initial publication would be
a good move.
Hope this helps,
Richard
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