Empowered Mirror Image

[EOL]

I asked this before many moons ago, but I can't recall ever getting a definitive answer. I have some questions about casting an empowered mirror image. The spell description on mirror image says:

Mirror Image creates 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images).

Now I'm assuming that when it talks about a maximum of eight images it's speaking of all the images, not merely the additional images for your level, because if that were the case you would have to be level 24 to max out. Preceding from this assumption and based on the spells description how does an empowered (or double empowered) mirror image work?

1- Is it just the 1d4 that is multiplied by 1.5 or is it 1d4=(lvl/3)?

When I asked the question before I remember I was leaning towards the latter, but hadn't been convinced

2- Regardless of the answer to the first question what about the cap of 8 is that still a maximum even with the empower or does it go to 12 (16 with a double empower)?

A normal fireball is capped at 10d6, but an empowered fireball could do more than 60 points of damage, but somehow this doesn't feel similar enough to make that ruling, plus 8 is the number of squares surrounding a single square on a grid.

I realize this is a very picky rules question, but if you can't ask these sort of things on enworld where can you ask?

 

[Hypersmurf]

1- Is it just the 1d4 that is multiplied by 1.5 or is it 1d4=(lvl/3)?

The Magic Missile example under the Empower Spell description says to multiply (1d4+1) by 1.5... not to multiply the 1d4 by 1.5 and add 1.

So I'd say 1d4+x is multiplied. However...

2- Regardless of the answer to the first question what about the cap of 8 is that still a maximum even with the empower or does it go to 12 (16 with a double empower)?

... with Fireball, the damage is increased, but the cap on the number of dice allowable remains the same.

The implication is that caps aren't affected by Empower.

-Hyp.

 

[EOL]

The magic missile issue came up before and as I recall some were arguing that 1d4+1 is just the only way of modeling a 2-5 random distribution, whereas 1d4+(1/3 levels) is a completely different beast. As I said I'm inclined to think it's the same, but someone has to play the devils advocate.

As for the cap argument it's fairly convincing.

 

[Hypersmurf]

As I said I'm inclined to think it's the same, but someone has to play the devils advocate.

Well, if you already agree, there's no point in arguing... devil's advocate or not, your heart wouldn't be in it

-Hyp.

 

[apsuman]

I disagree ( I think).

Empower

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. An empowered spell deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, etc., as appropriate. Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one the character makes when the character casts dispel magic) are not affected. Spells without random variables are not affected. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

I think the spirit of the feat is to take the number calculated and multiply it by 1.5.

In the case of Cure Light woulds, it is 1d8+1/caster level you take the entire result and then multiply it by 1.5.

So, Mirror Image should be the same way. First do the 1d4+X then multiply the whole number by 1.5.

And given that empower is suppose to do more than the base spell I say that limit of 8 images would be overcome by empower feat.

g!

 

[Crothian]

I disagree ( I think).

Empower

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. An empowered spell deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, etc., as appropriate. Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one the character makes when the character casts dispel magic) are not affected. Spells without random variables are not affected. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

I think the spirit of the feat is to take the number calculated and multiply it by 1.5.

In the case of Cure Light woulds, it is 1d8+1/caster level you take the entire result and then multiply it by 1.5.

So, Mirror Image should be the same way. First do the 1d4+X then multiply the whole number by 1.5.

And given that empower is suppose to do more than the base spell I say that limit of 8 images would be overcome by empower feat.

g!

I second this guy's reasoning. Metamagic can go beyond the originals spells limits. Isn't that the point of them?

 

[the Jester]

I'd say the maximum number of images would be 8 times 1.5, or twelve.

 

[graydoom]

I can't decide if I think it would be legal or not, but upping the maximum number of images wouldn't do any real harm.

However, the precedent seems to be against it. I don't think a cap of 8 images is a "variable, numeric effect".

 

[bret]

I think the maximum for the spell would still be eight, but the empower would come in after the maximum is applied.

The Empower would only affect the variable amount (1d4 images), not the +1 image per 3 caster levels. Thus the Empower would give between zero (1 * 1.5 = 1) and 2 (4 * 1.5 = 6) extra images. Probably not worth it.

The example with Magic Missle isn't a good one, it is using 1d4+1 to create a random effect from 2-5. Instead, look at something like Shocking Grasp which gives 1d8 + 1 per caster level. If you empower it, I think it would do 1d8 * 1.5 + 1 per caster level. The caster level would not get multiplied by the Empower since it is not a random variable amount.

 

[CRGreathouse]

The example with Magic Missle isn't a good one, it is using 1d4+1 to create a random effect from 2-5. Instead, look at something like Shocking Grasp which gives 1d8 + 1 per caster level. If you empower it, I think it would do 1d8 * 1.5 + 1 per caster level. The caster level would not get multiplied by the Empower since it is not a random variable amount.

The rules simply don't cover this situation. By a literal interpretation, the 1d4+(level/3) is multiplied by 1.5 and the cap remains 8.

The only real solution (I hate semantic arguments ) is to consider what's balanced. I think it's fine to increase the whole amount, but the cap should stay 8. Still, that's just my opinion.