EN World City Project: Guilds and Organizations

[Tonguez]

See my above post about how you can turn the work you've done for this idea into a very interesting "laborers riot" that would be a great city happening, but that wouldn't really acomplish anything, and which wouldn't subtract greatly from the pseudo-medieval feel. The wealthy were so worried about the beggars in venice around (gah cant remember) i think 1380's? that they made it a crime to import people into the city. This worry implies to me that they are afraid of riots (more likely due to food scarcity) by the laborers.

joe b.

Exactly why I suggested the tiny group of 12 'idealists/agitators' - the Halfling Sociliasts (cause who but a halfling would have such a silly idea?) - claiming to represent the interest of the labourers - a DM can then take this seed and as Idealists develop the Union or as Agitators spark a riot (or full on revolution!)

Once you go more than 50 (100 at a stretch) the group becomes a threat to the status quo and it WILL be eliminated

 

[Lalato]

As I noted previously... I'm mainly opposed to the laborer's guild idea. I won't rule out that there might be a halfling communist out there trying to form one, but there sure as heck wouldn't be a guild/union already created...

Tying this with the discussion in the Admin thread about slavery... If we allow limited slavery... there might be abolitionists out there... that makes much more sense to me than a labor guild.

--sam

 

[fusangite]

The plurality of threads is getting really confusing. I never know where anything is going to be discussed. Anyway, thanks Tonguez for the explanation of the Halfling Socialists; it make me more comfortable with the idea.

Anyway, lalato suggested that the slavery discussion might bear on this one. Due to information confusion, I'll repost it here:

I very much like the idea of a slave trade; it's an important sub-theme in one of the campaigns I currently run.

Of course, one of the most interesting things about slavery is that its definition shifts depending on locale. Often a slave purchased in one jurisdiction has completely different rights in the jurisdiction to which his buyer takes him.

I would therefore suggest that Mor's End have a "soft" slavery model, similar to that of post-Roman Gaul or 16th century Spain -- or an even soften type like that of 15th century West Africa.

Of course, it may be that the places with which Mor's End trades have a harsh chattel slavery model like that of the 19th century American South or Northwest Coast aboriginal people.

If we end up going with some variant of my history, I would argue that Mor, the ex-slave would not in fact prohibit slavery in his city. Instead, he would create a very generous system that recognized slaves' rights. The latter system would have a far greater chance of freeing slaves than one which simply turned away slaves and their owners at the door.

I'd therefore suggest that the slavery system have the following elements:
1. A cap on the maximum number of hours per week of work for slaves.
2. Enshrining the right of slaves to marry.
3. Free legal counsel for slaves.
4. Enshrining the legal right of slaves to work during their free time.
5. Court-ordered self-purchase in the event that an owner refuses to allow a slave to purchase his freedom, in which the court fixes a price and payment timetable.

With the exception of 2, this is basically the legal framework of Iberian slavery in the 15th through 18th centuries for those who wish to look at this more closely.

Of course, there are still many ways for the owners and establishment to manipulate the system to keep slaves from ever being freed. In addition, such a system can still enact severe penalties for slaves escaping illegally -- even death.

As for the question of modularity, I don't see a problem. If the characters are from a place where there is no slavery, there's no problem with the slavery model above and if they come from a place where there is a different slavery model, again -- no problem.

 

[Conaill]

We'll historically laborer's guilds etc are definitly not a medieval thing so it would be a little anacronistic.

Ah, in that case, might I suggest you change the sentence "Most early magical medieval city dwellers are guild members." in the next edition of "A Magical Medieval Society"? (I had already figured out for myself that that would NOT include the ~1000 beggers in Mor's End...)

See, this is why I asked the experts!

Given this input, I think I would prefer to delete the "Worker's Senate" from this thread altogether. A small number of agitators of social reformers sounds more like a plothook rather than a fixed organization.

And what's up with the whole "halfling socialist" idea anyway? It's definitely not something I would associate with halflings. Maybe it's just a 3e thing, but I tend to think of halflings as somewhat chaotic self-centered little bastards. The whole "preferred class: Rogue" thing, ya know? They just don't seem cut out to be social reformers...

 

[Lalato]

The whole "preferred class: Rogue" thing, ya know? They just don't seem cut out to be social reformers...

Yeah... but that's what makes it even more fun... A Halfling Socialist...

fusangite... I agree... all of the threads do get confusing... Thanks for reposting your slave comments.

--sam

 

[Conaill]

fusangite: You're right, it can get confusing trying to figure in which thread a specific discussion like the one on slavery belongs. But as the local minister, I would say: probably not in this one!

No need to add to the confusion, so let's try to keep this one specifically for Guilds and other organizations in the city. Unless we've hashed out the slavery issue far enough that we want to have a slavers' guild or an abolitionist society, I don't think this thread is the right place for such a discussion.

Feel free to edit out your last post, and replace it with a link to the thread where the actual discussion is happening...

 

[Lalato]

Sounds like we need a Minister of Miscellany... for all of the stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else...

--sam

 

[jdavis]

That's one reason I wanted the thieves guild involved in this. It will surely blow up at some point and in that chaos the thieves guild would probably be the only guild that would gain out of chaos in the streets, therefore they are probably egging it on, not to metion their work in collecting "donations" and petition signees.

When you combine idealism, political intrigue, corruption and demonstrations in the streets you are generating tons of potential plot hooks. You could also write it so that DM's who didn't feel it fit their world could just use the NPC's as idealist and not have any type of organization present. As long as it is a optional addition then it could be handled in several different ways.

 

[GladiusNP]

Just have been keeping tabs on this discussion. I'm not sure if I'm still convinced of the need for the Worker's Senate. Most of the labourers are already loosely affiliated with some sort of guild - dockworkers and porters with the Merchant's Council, watersilk harvesters with the Watersilker's Circle, and quarry workers with the Glazer's Guild. Sure, they don't have much say, but they probably get paid a little bit better by belonging to the guild and have an easier time finding work.

I admit, though this is a world of magic, that I also can't see the workers striking for an extended period of time without starving. Looking at the numbers of clerics and paladins, there aren't really enough to provide for a significant number of workers. Magic items among the workers seems much too high magic as well. Agitators will face an uphill battle.

Lastly, socialism is not a medieval idea. The Communist Manifesto was not published until 1848, and Marx's ideas were not recognized widely until after his death. Lenin was the first to really attempt to apply Marx's work to developing a system of government, in the early 1900s. I'd say it's much to anachronistic, and really sets a discordant note compared to the rest of the city.

With that said, if this is an idea that people are really behind, I can live with that. As is probably clear, it's not my first choice, but I'll deal with it if we decide to make it canon! Anyway, I'm beginning to wonder about this Thieves' Guild as well - are we going to detail it a little more? Are we still sticking with groups of gangs (which I'd prefer) or were we returning to the more traditional guilds?

One more thing, with regard to the university. Although it may not be entirely on Wizard's Guild grounds, I think that wizards are pretty much going to run the place. They have Knowledge as a class skill, are all intelligent, and have leisure time and money. Some clerics may train others in theology, and although they were historically the main force behind universities, I’d argue against this in Mor’s End since the clerics are pretty much in the background. What do other’s think? This way, the university will still remain small, as a bit of a sideshow. It’s not going to have much influence on the town, or large numbers of students.

 

[Lalato]

With regard to the Thieves Guild... I like the idea of various gangs... that definitely adds some plot hook spice to the tired old Thieves Guild concept...

If we are going with the standard Thieves Guild... does anyone have Gary Gygax's Canting Crew? I believe it's about Thieves Guilds... but I haven't read it.

With regard to the university... I'm still firmly against it. The city's population is too small to support the concept... unless you mean it's really a one-room school, that pretends it's a university. I think what is more likely is that wizard's may take individual apprentices here and there, but there is little likelihood of a full blown university.

I favor the alternate idea of university actually being the term given to the local jail. Inmates that can't "pay" for their crimes are often sold into indentured servitude to one of the guilds where they learn a trade. These folks are considered to have "graduated" from university. Anyway... it's just a thought.

--sam