EN World City Project: Guilds and Organizations

[fusangite]

On the Thieves' Guild question...

Am I correct in thinking that the Thieves' Guild concept comes to D&D via Fritz Lieber? (I haven't read him)

I always found the idea of a Thieves' Guild very strange and pretty well nonexistent in any literature (fantasy or otherwise) or history that I read. It seems to me that the only modern equivalent to a Thieves' Guild is the mafia -- and I'm guessing it's that which people are trying to recreate in D&D.

It seems to me, though, that a Thieves' Guild is an oxymoronic thing: a chartered legal entity that exists for the sole purpose of doing illegal things. The mafia has no legal existence; it has no public headquarters; the public face of the mafia are the legitimate businesses it acquires.

However, because Thieves' Guilds appear to be demanded by the D&D genre, I have had to create one in one of my campaigns. However, it (1) has an obfuscating name "The League of Open Hand" (2) is constituted as a charity with a a two-tier membership system -- one which is the actual thieves' guild, the other of which is a philanthropic gentlemen's club (3) has nothing like a monopoly on illegal activity -- most illegal activity is more closely associated with the organizations whose cooperation it requires: the guard and the state.

I'm happy to give Mor's End my League of Open Hand, bylaws and all if people want it. But I'm really hoping that one of the benefits of 3E is that with no one classed as a "thief", the Thieves' Guild idea can die a natural death.

Instead, I'd prefer that we look at what the city's laws are, which laws there's an economic advantage to breaking and then looking at what type of organizations would form around the individual economic advantages.

 

[fusangite]

On the library front, I hope that we have no central library but instead have various libraries of varying sizes located all around the city, each jealously guarding its collection of books.

On the university front, I'm interested in whether we want a chartered university system where the state charters a university with a building and a set of rights, including its own organizational structure or whether we work with the medieval model in which the university has no buildings or infrastructure but is either an ad hoc association of teachers who take fees from students to teach or an ad hoc association of students who hire teachers.

 

[jdavis]

A thieves guild would not be a legal guild, it would be a hidden group, calling it a guild is sort of a inside joke, Yea it really is sort of a organized crime group, basically the idea is that powerful members of the 'Underworld" try to control what the goes on in the city by controlling the lesser thiefs, pickpockets, spies assassins, beggers and other less than legal groups in the city. Most thieves don't join the guild because they wish to gain anything from joining the group they join the group and hand over part of what they steal and in exchange the more powerful thieves in the city don't kill them. It works the same as a protection racket only the thieves hope to one day get strong, rich, or powerful enough to become one of the people on the inside. Call it a syndicate, the mafia, cartel, yakuza, gentlemen's club, the idea goes back a long long time. There are no rules or membership dues, you don't get anything from membership but protection from the organization and access to better fences. Run it like a protection racket, for everything you steal you have to give a precentage to these people (who would be shadowy and unknown) or somebody comes around and breaks your leg. If you haven't paid up then you can't use their fences and you better keep a very low profile.

As far as a university goes, I would prefer a university with no classrooms at all, all teaching is done by tutors who come to you, it is expensive and only the rich can take advantage of it. Call it the Guild of Sages instead of the university, they have a guild house where they do odd research and if you are going to tutor in the city then you have to be registered. Education is a luxury item, it should be treated as such. Maybe this group and the mage guild is one in the same, many wizards are also scholars or loremasters in their own right.

 

[Tonguez]

1. A DEN of THIEVES I like the development of the 'fences' as a central but not organised 'gentlemens club' who oversee the indepedent thieves and gangs and run what is essentially a protection racket!. I definately do NOT want to see a 'guild' structure appearing. (NB it was I who suggested the fence idea above - Silas Pimm the fence)

2. A COLLEGE of SCHOLARS I have an NPC (in that thread) who is Director of the City Museum and Archives (Library) and the History threads have mentioned the Library being established by Erekh Nohan). I like the idea of the Library being the 'University' - which is in fact an ad hoc association of Teaching Masters and Researchers (thanks Fusangite).

Maybe there isn't enough demand for their services as yet , but they are all well educated and many have the ear of influential people (as they tutor their children) - the prospect of a properly chartered University isn't to far off if they play their cards right

 

[Conaill]

On the library front, I hope that we have no central library but instead have various libraries of varying sizes located all around the city, each jealously guarding its collection of books.

I have an NPC (in that thread) who is Director of the City Museum and Archives (Library) and the History threads have mentioned the Library being established by Erekh Nohan).

How about this: the Citadel houses the City Museum and Archives. The Mages Guild houses an arcane library, which has over time been extended to become a "general knowledge" library.

So we have at least two centers: the City Archive (mainly annals and history), and the "Scholar's Collection" (general knowledge), with a section which is accessible to mages only. Individual Guilds probably have small libraries related to their trade secrets as well, especially the Glazers Guild (lots of glaze related alchemy) and the Glittering Brotherhood (more magic related, might even have a separate restricted section inside the "mages only" section of the Scholar's Collection).

 

[Lalato]

With regard to libraries... I was thinking that the majority of books would be housed in private collections.

Noble X has a great collection of medical tomes... he even has the "Annotated Anatomy of Yak Men"...

Noble Y's collection is OK... mostly religious texts... if you're into that sort of thing.

The Sage Q has a remarkable collection of works detailing the flora and fauna of the known kingdoms. He also has a "secret" collection of books on alchemy

Professor X (attribution Marvel Comics)... has an incredible collection of books on Sorcery... and how these powers manifest themselves.

The Castellan holds a collection of works recovered from the Goblin Kingdom. Many of the texts have never been opened. I wonder what lies in that vault of tomes.

I've heard that the Mages Cabal has pooled their collection together. It is rather diverse... but much of it is to do with magic.

Noble W has a small but excellent collection of poetry and song... I've found it rather handy when researching styles in which to write the Epic of Mor...

Anyway... that's sorta how I saw the library system working... There is no one place you can find everything you need. Sometimes... you have to go knocking on some noble's door just to get information on a mundane topic.

--sam

 

[fusangite]

I vastly prefer Lalato's library model to the others proposed.

 

[Conaill]

That's why I said "at least two centers". The Citadel will have a central repository for archives, and lalato already acknowledged that the mage's cabal would pool their collection.

What fraction of the city's total number of books those two contain is up for discussion, but I would think that they probably dwarf any other single collection.

How about this: the mage's library has a smaller section with general knowledge which is publicly accessible (at a fee, and under supervision). I'd say probably about 1/2 the size of the arcane section. This would be a good jumping-off point if the PCs need to research something. Included in this collection is a card catalog (or probably more like a series of book-size indices, very poorly organized and updated) listing other, more detailed works that may or may not be in posession of various other collections in the city. Chasing the actual location of a specific volume across the city could be an adventure in itself.

 

[jdavis]

A thing to note on libraries is that a couple of hundred years ago the city was burnt down, the only collection that wouldn't of been affected was the one in the citadel. Other collections would either be ones saved from the fire (posibly damaged) or brought in from other sources. The citadel archive would be the only longstanding source for books on Mor's End dating back to the founding.

 

[GladiusNP]

Tonguez - sorry to rip off your idea. I couldn't remember where it had come from - edited to include credits.

I think the problem with the library is whether or not Mor's End has the printing press. This is campaign specific. If we assume (like most DM's) that wide-scale, commercial printing of books isn't widely available, then Ialato's libraries will consist of maybe a dozen books, at the most. A very rich noble may have thirty or so, but that's a considerable investment.

I'd vote for Ialato's private collections. The wizards guild probably has the largest collection by quite some margin, but not a on the order of more than a hundred books or so. A dedicated building may be too much as well - there simply aren't enough books to fill it, and if they are all written out by hand, you aren't going to let any citizen handle them.