Encounter planning wackiness?

[Nerdanel]

Based on that I heard it's 1000 XP to gain a level, any level, and 10 encounters are expected per level that means for monsters that are on an equal level with the PCs:

Minion - 25 XP
Standard - 100 XP
Elite - 200 XP
Solo - 500 XP

The XP values would then be multiplied/divided by some constant to compensate if a monster was on a higher/lower level than the PCs. If you could determine how much stronger a PC is on average on level n+1 than on level n, you would discover that constant. Let's guess the factor is 25%:

Standard monster:
-5: 33 XP
-4: 41 XP
-3: 51 XP
-2: 64 XP
-1: 80 XP
+0: 100 XP
+1: 125 XP
+2: 156 XP
+3: 195 XP
+4: 244 XP
+5: 305 XP

Something like that, anyway.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm betting that there will be very little about advancing of creatures, and more of a focus on providing appropriate level creatures across the range 1-30 (W&M says that they have more lower level stuff than higher level stuff in MM1 for obvious reasons).

Considering the new design imperative that means that you can have a good scrap with creatures that are within +/- 5 levels from you, rather than 3e where once CR is +/-2 it becomes much harder to run good fights because of slower scaling of attacks and defences, and a lot of the purpose of scaling monsters is likely to go away.

I wouldn't be surprised if such scaling as exists will be based around when and how to add additional monsters to an encounter (as per earlier comments... e.g. the point at which a skirmisher 6 barbed devil is an elite, the point at which it is a normal and the point at which it is worth a minion.

Cheers

As far as we heard, monsters have level and a fixed XP value, and there will be an "suggested XP for party of [this] level". So monster will never turn from solo to elite to solo per se, but at some poinsts, the XP value of a level n solo monster will become equal to the p value of a level m elite monster (with n < m).
It remains to be seen if a low level solo monster is actuall usable in such a scenario - the rules for it might be a bit more complicated if used with multiple opponents.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Based on that I heard it's 1000 XP to gain a level, any level, and 10 encounters are expected per level that means for monsters that are on an equal level with the PCs:

Minion - 25 XP
Standard - 100 XP
Elite - 200 XP
Solo - 500 XP

The XP values would then be multiplied/divided by some constant to compensate if a monster was on a higher/lower level than the PCs. If you could determine how much stronger a PC is on average on level n+1 than on level n, you would discover that constant. Let's guess the factor is 25%:

Standard monster:
-5: 33 XP
-4: 41 XP
-3: 51 XP
-2: 64 XP
-1: 80 XP
+0: 100 XP
+1: 125 XP
+2: 156 XP
+3: 195 XP
+4: 244 XP
+5: 305 XP

Something like that, anyway.

I didn't hear that. I would have expected they would stay with the (level x 1000 XP) formula.

 

[Lackhand]

As far as we heard, monsters have level and a fixed XP value, and there will be an "suggested XP for party of [this] level". So monster will never turn from solo to elite to solo per se, but at some poinsts, the XP value of a level n solo monster will become equal to the p value of a level m elite monster (with n < m).
It remains to be seen if a low level solo monster is actuall usable in such a scenario - the rules for it might be a bit more complicated if used with multiple opponents.

That said, there's nothing that prevents an adventure writer, DM, or later monster manual from presenting a simpler monster for use in massed combats; vrocks with spores for solo, vrocks without for more miniony roles.

Why don't these vrocks have spores? Oh, they do: you're just so high level that we'll assume you always make the saves, 'kay?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Mustrum!

You could try this, but assuming the party is "appropriate" for this encounter, it would probably have a level of 19. The Babau and posisible also the Glabrezu would have little chance of hitting any of the PCs, and any saving throw based effects would usually be saved against, or not apply at all (thanks to spells like Heroes Feast or Resist Energy (possible Mass)).

The monsters would generally still have a 1 in 20 chance, and in the minion or brute roles above would of course mean plying them in multiple numbers. Then again still only really useful as a delaying tactic or buffer between the PCs and perhaps an NPC henchman of the BBEG.

I agree. Even with extended "viability ranges" for monster levels, this doesn't seem to work. The Level 10 Skirmisher would probably be mostly dead weight, and you'd want to advance him or replace with something better.

Exactly. Then again, we have to remember two things. Firstly that BAB is lessened* and ability score 'bonuses' will be higher.

My guess is:

Solo Monster = 2/3 BAB
Elite Monster = 1/2 BAB = same as PC
Standard Monster = 1/3 BAB (example: Spined Devil, Level 6 Skirmisher with +7 bonus to strength, gets +9 to attack)
Minion Monster = 1/4 BAB

That would mean a base difference of 13 between a 30th-level Minion and a 30th level Solo monster. If we assume a typical PC will hit itself on an 11 or better and Elite monsters parallel PCs then:

Solo Monster ~ hits on a 6+ (75% chance)
Elite Monster ~ hits on an 11+ (50% chance)
Standard Monster ~ hits on a 16+ (25% chance)
Minion Monster ~ hits on a 19+ (10% chance)

Then therefore...

a 30th-level Minion = a 10th-level Solo Monster.
a 30th-level Minion = a 15th-level Elite Monster.
a 30th-level Minion = a 20th-level Standard Monster.

Hence my reasoning that the Monster power roles can scale downwards (From solo, to elite, to standard, to minion)

There seem to be a lot of stack blocks in the first MM, but will they suffice?

To be honest I don't think we will see very many stacked stat blocks (such as Elementals) in the new MM.

Obviously WotC has a interest i creating MM 2-5 and people buying it. Maybe if the system works well and produces a lot of useable monsters, it will be worth its money?

I think one way around the idea could be to incorporate monster themes in each monster manual based around various leader types. So for instance if you have Orcus, you make sure there are enough demons and undead to create such an adventure. Same with the Beholder and its servants/minions. Or with the Aboleth and its servants/minions, etc. Just don't include leader types and then not have enough servants and minions to accomodate it.

 

[pemerton]

It remains to be seen if a low level solo monster is actuall usable in such a scenario - the rules for it might be a bit more complicated if used with multiple opponents.

That said, there's nothing that prevents an adventure writer, DM, or later monster manual from presenting a simpler monster for use in massed combats; vrocks with spores for solo, vrocks without for more miniony roles.

Why don't these vrocks have spores? Oh, they do: you're just so high level that we'll assume you always make the saves, 'kay?

I find both these posts really insightful in the way that they put the new monster building paradigm to work.

Then therefore...

a 30th-level Minion = a 10th-level Solo Monster.
a 30th-level Minion = a 15th-level Elite Monster.
a 30th-level Minion = a 20th-level Standard Monster.

Hence my reasoning that the Monster power roles can scale downwards (From solo, to elite, to standard, to minion).

For the reasons Mustrum Ridcully gives I don't think this works so simply. It's not just about size of BAB or number of hits, its about the variety and complexity of actions. I think Lackhand has a better description of how it will work - you read the numbers for a 30th level Minion off the generic chart, and then put on whatever little tweaks might be required to make it Vrockish (we heard one of the designers talking about this with respect to giant spiders) and ignore all those parts of the lower-level Elite or Solo Vrock that would make it a pain to run as a minion, using the rationale (which can be explained as Lackhand does, or in any other way that makes narrative and thematic sense) that high-level characters aren't affected by those details.

 

[small pumpkin man]

Howdy Mustrum!

The monsters would generally still have a 1 in 20 chance, and in the minion or brute roles above would of course mean plying them in multiple numbers. Then again still only really useful as a delaying tactic or buffer between the PCs and perhaps an NPC henchman of the BBEG.

Exactly. Then again, we have to remember two things. Firstly that BAB is lessened* and ability score 'bonuses' will be higher.

My guess is:

Solo Monster = 2/3 BAB
Elite Monster = 1/2 BAB = same as PC
Standard Monster = 1/3 BAB (example: Spined Devil, Level 6 Skirmisher with +7 bonus to strength, gets +9 to attack)
Minion Monster = 1/4 BAB

I feel extremely certain that it will NOT work like this. A large part of the point of the new system is that the math stays the same, most everything will go 1 per 2 levels, with a flat bonus, that will stay the same among the levels.

I also don't expect a huge difference between the attack bonuses and AC of Solo/elite/normal/minion, I think it's far more likely that damage, actions and hp will be the scaling factor, otherwise there's no point to setting it up like that, you might as well just use CR.

That would mean a base difference of 13 between a 30th-level Minion and a 30th level Solo monster. If we assume a typical PC will hit itself on an 11 or better and Elite monsters parallel PCs then:

Solo Monster ~ hits on a 6+ (75% chance)
Elite Monster ~ hits on an 11+ (50% chance)
Standard Monster ~ hits on a 16+ (25% chance)
Minion Monster ~ hits on a 19+ (10% chance)

Then therefore...

a 30th-level Minion = a 10th-level Solo Monster.
a 30th-level Minion = a 15th-level Elite Monster.
a 30th-level Minion = a 20th-level Standard Monster.

Hence my reasoning that the Monster power roles can scale downwards (From solo, to elite, to standard, to minion)

To be honest I don't think we will see very many stacked stat blocks (such as Elementals) in the new MM.

I think one way around the idea could be to incorporate monster themes in each monster manual based around various leader types. So for instance if you have Orcus, you make sure there are enough demons and undead to create such an adventure. Same with the Beholder and its servants/minions. Or with the Aboleth and its servants/minions, etc. Just don't include leader types and then not have enough servants and minions to accomodate it.

I don't see it working like that, because it misses the entire point of splitting them up as minion/normal/elite/Solo. The problem with CR is that if you fight a lot of mooks they often do quite good damage, but can't hit you, and if you make a major boss, their often quite hard to affect, but have too few actions to do anything, so they get swarmed/whittled down anyway, by setting creatures up so that they're designed to take a party by themselves, or to be part of a horde, you get around that problem.

Or to put it simply, Solo does not just mean +4 CR, Minion does not just mean -? CR, don't expect them to work like that.

In regards to scaling monsters, it's beensaid it's going to be easier to scale monsters up (and just as easy to scale them down), I haven't seen details, but I'm not worried.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Exactly. Then again, we have to remember two things. Firstly that BAB is lessened* and ability score 'bonuses' will be higher.

My guess is:

Solo Monster = 2/3 BAB
Elite Monster = 1/2 BAB = same as PC
Standard Monster = 1/3 BAB (example: Spined Devil, Level 6 Skirmisher with +7 bonus to strength, gets +9 to attack)
Minion Monster = 1/4 BAB

That would mean a base difference of 13 between a 30th-level Minion and a 30th level Solo monster. If we assume a typical PC will hit itself on an 11 or better and Elite monsters parallel PCs then:

Solo Monster ~ hits on a 6+ (75% chance)
Elite Monster ~ hits on an 11+ (50% chance)
Standard Monster ~ hits on a 16+ (25% chance)
Minion Monster ~ hits on a 19+ (10% chance)

Then therefore...

a 30th-level Minion = a 10th-level Solo Monster.
a 30th-level Minion = a 15th-level Elite Monster.
a 30th-level Minion = a 20th-level Standard Monster.

Hence my reasoning that the Monster power roles can scale downwards (From solo, to elite, to standard, to minion)

As others before me said, I don't think that's how it works.
Basically, 4E monsters have a level and a "weight category". Monsters within a certain level will have similar defenses and attack modifiers, but their hit points and #attacks/combat options (and possible damage) per round will increase with "weight".
A Minion might have one attack with weak damage. A regular monster one attack with moderate damage. An Elite monster two attacks, and a Solo monster might have 2 attacks with strong damage or 4 with medium damage. On top of that there are special abilities that
- replace an attack
- can be used as a reaction (oppertunity attacks, immediate actions) out of the creatures turn.

There might be rules/guidelines/tables to increase level and weight of a monster. Though a monster that defaults to Minion will probably never make a good solo monster, or vice versa.