encountering a villian early, deflate him? Or give as is?
- Thread starter fba827
- Start date
The lesson to the players then becomes: "I the GM will void your actions if they don't fit my plans".
The players learned that the miniboss was too tough for them, and sought out allies to deal with it. That's smart play. Nerfing the miniboss or turning the royal guard into human rabble or whatever in order to create a balanced encounter is NOT FUN. It's not fun because the players by their actions have already indicated what they find fun: getting an advantage through cleverness that enables them to beat a superior foe.
I am S'mon and I approve this message.
This is exactly the kind of lateral thinking a GM needs to be doing.
I just ran two Goodman Dungeon Crawl Classics - "No NPC That Doesn't Need Killing". Well, that can get damn boring after the umpteenth combat encounter. Having the Duergar high priest negotiate a peace treaty & return of prisoners & loot, rather than just charge into the meatgrinder like the other 63 encounters as scripted, really livened things up IMO and made for a great change of pace.
The "super bad ass NPCS who turn into total incompetents once they're on the side of the protagonists" is a common meme in adventure fiction, but one that I always try to steer clear of, and I advise other GMs to do the same.
Remember the SWAT team in Die Hard 2? Did you think that was a cool scene where they all got wiped out in 2 seconds, leaving the hero to save the day? Not me; it just trashed my Suspension of Disbelief. Compare with the perfectly plausible equivalent in Die Hard 1 - single corporate security guard ambushed and shot. Or the realstic, dramatic depiction of the police station massacre in The Terminator - the NPCs were doomed to lose, because they were hugely outmatched and didn't know what they were fighting, but the GM/Director didn't treat them with contempt. Another good example again by Jim Cameron is his treatment of the Colonial Marines in 'Aliens' - again, they don't know what they're up against, and they are defeated, but they're not treated as disposable minions.
If the *mini* boss wipes the floor with the Royal Guard, the King's best warriors, in a battle of their choosing, stop and think for a moment what message that sends the players. It reduces the RG to the level of cardboard cut-outs, like the Die Hard 2 SWAT team, only there to make the PCs look good. 99% of players will appreciate it far more if the Royal Guard are depicted as just as tough & competent as they ought logically to be. Then when the PCs eventually surpass them in power, it becomes a genuine achievement.
Going by the OP's update - if you're going to have trouble running the fight with the Royal Guard as statted, turn them into Minions. You do this by keeping their XP total, but raising their Level. Heroic Tier Soldiers become Paragon Tier minions. Then if they lose, at least they lose quickly. If the PCs can't scratch the boss, the challenge then becomes getting out alive.
Doug McCrae
Legend
Based on fba827's second post it seems the PCs have a very obvious course of action - run away. Destroying the artefact is the main goal, they've got no reason to stick around and fight the mini-boss once that's achieved. In fact they could use the royal guard to cover their escape, leaving them to be horribly massacred.
Kingreaper
Adventurer
[sblock]Are the soldiers tough enough to beat the boss? Or come close?
If so, is the boss smart enough to run away?
The fact the PCs brought the soldiers with them means that they can break the mcguffin without being killed by it, but the boss isn't going to fight on their terms.
So, they may choose to chase him, in which case he'll be dropping henchmen, summoned demons/whatever in their path while they follow.[/sblock]
or
[sblock]When is the miniboss released? When the first crack appears?
When does he stop getting power from the artifact? When it's fully destroyed?
If both those guesses are right, then finishing off the macguffin, while trying to stay alive, could be a big important goal.[/sblock]
If so, is the boss smart enough to run away?
The fact the PCs brought the soldiers with them means that they can break the mcguffin without being killed by it, but the boss isn't going to fight on their terms.
So, they may choose to chase him, in which case he'll be dropping henchmen, summoned demons/whatever in their path while they follow.[/sblock]
or
[sblock]When is the miniboss released? When the first crack appears?
When does he stop getting power from the artifact? When it's fully destroyed?
If both those guesses are right, then finishing off the macguffin, while trying to stay alive, could be a big important goal.[/sblock]
alright, with a bit more detail...
[sblock]I see no reason why the miniboss would necessarily want to stick around, and if you felt like it, he could clean the clock of the PCs and then go off elsewhere to do more important stuff. No need to make a clean kill, and the guard's medic could come in, and cast "Mass Heal" or some such spell on everybody.
The miniboss could also conceivably be weakened coming out of the relic and WANT to flee so he could recover his power. [/sblock]
And here's an idea
[sblock]Instead of making them fight the miniboss, give them the evil doppleganger fight. Assuming you haven't done it already, that is. Just put them against a few reverse versions of themselves, and have the big bad dude go off because well, with his relic destroyed, what's he got to hang around for? Revenge? He'll have that later. Or he'll go after a real target, like....[/sblock]
[sblock]I see no reason why the miniboss would necessarily want to stick around, and if you felt like it, he could clean the clock of the PCs and then go off elsewhere to do more important stuff. No need to make a clean kill, and the guard's medic could come in, and cast "Mass Heal" or some such spell on everybody.
The miniboss could also conceivably be weakened coming out of the relic and WANT to flee so he could recover his power. [/sblock]
And here's an idea
[sblock]Instead of making them fight the miniboss, give them the evil doppleganger fight. Assuming you haven't done it already, that is. Just put them against a few reverse versions of themselves, and have the big bad dude go off because well, with his relic destroyed, what's he got to hang around for? Revenge? He'll have that later. Or he'll go after a real target, like....[/sblock]
Last edited:
The Human Target
Adventurer
Getting TPKed by something you have no chance at all of defeating or watching NPCs (even ones you get to temporarily run) doesn't sound like much fun to me.
A 5th level party can't be of much help at all against a monster in the teens. So basically their advantage is that they found someone capable of actually completing the quest fro them. Which I guess could be kinda fun of you managed to trick a dragon or something. But teaming up with guards? Thats fun?
Pbartender
First Post
Another option is to have the team of Royal Guards be nearly and narrowly beaten by the mini-boss, and let the PCs act as the Cavalry that tips the balance of the fight.
When the PCs show up, the RGs are not exactly pasted, but have fought the mini-boss to a standstill. The RGs are on their last legs and exhausted. the mini-boss as well, is beaten up pretty badly, but still has a small edge over the RGs. At this point, the PCs can provide that extra bit of firepower to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat... The RGs have just enough strength left to provide distraction and support, while the PCs actively finish off the mini-boss.
Then, after it's all done the terribly would leader of the RGs can compliment them, "We couldn't have beaten him, if you hadn't shown up when you did."
