Enhanced Stats and Spells

[Scion]

How about this then, going by the stat enhancing spells, according to the opposing logic then when your stat goes down again (whether by the spell duration running out or by a penalty to that stat) then you will lose some prepared spells. Because empty spell slots dont count (and for your ruling they arent even empty yet really) so you must lose spells you have memorized.

Pretty harsh, the way I am reading the rules ignores that completely as it isnt a change it will notice.

 

[drnuncheon]

Exactly, and it specificaly states that. Point for me.

You have clearly made up your mind. You aren't interested in considering how the rules work, you aren't interested in actually thinking about what is said, you're only interested in scoring points.

But, I am nothing if not persistant. So, I ask you this:

You keep saying 'you don't lose slots', but you can provide no evidence to back that up. All you can do is cling to that statement and try to shoot down other people's evidence to the contrary. Fine. Where is the support for your interpretation? Please provide exact quotes and concrete evidence that indicate that slots are exempt from the rules governing ability drain. Please note that the absence of specific examples is not concrete evidence.

It's our turn to poke holes. If we can't, I'll admit you're right, and you get one million points.

No, the caster still has to rest for 8 hours with his new spell pool total in order to regain those. As normal.

Oh, fer cryin' out loud.

The wizard puts on the ring and the headband, sleeps for 8 hours, takes it off. You claim he still has the doubled (and bonus) slots.

Since a prepared spell specifically doesn't go away until it is cast,you are claiming that the wizard could basically have those spells for the rest of his life.

going by the stat enhancing spells, according to the opposing logic then when your stat goes down again (whether by the spell duration running out or by a penalty to that stat) then you will lose some prepared spells.

Since the ability bonus is specifically called out as not providing bonus slots, obviously you don't lose them when the bonus goes away - you never got them to begin with.

J

 

[Scion]

You have clearly made up your mind. You aren't interested in considering how the rules work, you aren't interested in actually thinking about what is said, you're only interested in scoring points.

yep, clearly have, but then you have come in on the middle of this conversation.

I am saying that I am interpreting the rules in a way that is proper, but that since it isnt clear either way it could be done either way. That is fine.

but, the way I am posting actually has less abuse, and works better for the game, so it seems like a better rule to go by.

But, I am nothing if not persistant. So, I ask you this:

You keep saying 'you don't lose slots', but you can provide no evidence to back that up. All you can do is cling to that statement and try to shoot down other people's evidence to the contrary. Fine. Where is the support for your interpretation? Please provide exact quotes and concrete evidence that indicate that slots are exempt from the rules governing ability drain. Please note that the absence of specific examples is not concrete evidence.

It's our turn to poke holes. If we can't, I'll admit you're right, and you get one million points.

Everything you have quoted for your side can be used equally well for my side. That is the point, the rules are not clear. There is nothing definative. There is enough for a dm to make a ruling, but it could go either way, depending on the dm's preference. while rule 0 is all fine and good, it would be better to have a definate answer.

The fact that all of those spells dont mention it at all, that, in fact, nothing anywhere seems to mention it at all, is pretty damning. This isnt something where one side is definatively right or wrong, unfortunate perhaps, but true.

Even asking customer service or the sage is unhelpful, as customer service is wrong more often than they are right and the sage has a spotty track record with things that require thinking about more than one paragraph of text at a time. Sometimes he is better than others though, and he does have a rough job.

The wizard puts on the ring and the headband, sleeps for 8 hours, takes it off. You claim he still has the doubled (and bonus) slots.

Sure, where is the harm in that? The ring itself is already vastly overpriced, going by the way I have interpreted the rules it isnt so horribly overpriced, going by the way you are saying it is still vastly overpriced. That seems to be a point for my side

Since a prepared spell specifically doesn't go away until it is cast,you are claiming that the wizard could basically have those spells for the rest of his life.

Sure, if he didnt cast them. That is how the game works, until he casts them or chooses to forget them or something like energy drain zaps it away he will keep it forever. hence why there is an option to forget a spell that you currently have prepared.

Since the ability bonus is specifically called out as not providing bonus slots, obviously you don't lose them when the bonus goes away - you never got them to begin with.

But this would qualify as a special exception that my interpretation doesnt even have to deal with. For yours you have to say, 'well, even though it did decrease it didnt decrease beyond point X so you dont have to worry about it this time, even though normally under my ruling you would lose bonus slots since the stat said +X but changed to +Y'. It is just very inconsistant.

I much prefer my interpretation, which is perfectly valid with everything given so far. It just flows much better, much less bookeeping. generally I have seen nothing bad about it so far.

 

[pyk]

Even asking customer service or the sage is unhelpful, as customer service is wrong more often than they are right and the sage has a spotty track record with things that require thinking about more than one paragraph of text at a time.

Apparently, as you've repeatedly shown to us, he's not the only one.

You're totally hung up on the phrase "spells per day", as if that's some magic talisman.

Tell us, oh great wise one, how many "spelld per day" is a wizard entitled to, by the rules?

 

[drnuncheon]

Silly boards, taking a post and then telling me it didn't.

 

[drnuncheon]

Everything you have quoted for your side can be used equally well for my side.

Everything I have quoted for my side you have responded to with 'but it doesn't specifically address loss of spell slots for lowered stats'. That's what I mean by lack of examples not being concrete evidence.

So, please, again: once piece of concrete evidence, one example, one rule that might be interpreted as positively saying 'you don't lose spell slots for lowered int'.

We've got a whole bunch of rules that either say you do, or aren't applicable by your standards. Find us one that's not 'ruling by omission'. Just one that amounts to something beyond 'Scion likes it this way, and it doesn't spell out in big neon capital letters that it isn't'.

See, I'm thinking about this. I'm going to be open-minded. This is your chance to convince me. If you can't do better than "this is abusive" (which is not a factor in discussing the RAW - heck, the bag of rats was legal in 3.0) and "the rules don't say", then you don't have much of an argument as far as I'm concerned.

J

 

[pyk]

So, do you have any actual ways where my way leads to abuse?

Yup, here's a good one.

Wizard gets hit by Feeblemind. As per your rules, he still has those spells he prepared until he rests. Before the party gets to town, they rest.

Now, as he has only Int of 1, he regains - NO SPELL SLOTS:

Tomorrow when you try to get spells you will get less.

So today I got my spells (stat at X). (climbing up mountain)

If my stat changes, and it is still lower tomorrow, then when I get my spells back I will have less. (going back down the mountain).

and loses all he had prepared, as he is not eligible for any, now.

Just after he wakes up, a wandering cleric happens by, and the party asks for help. Cleric casts Restoration on the wizard, and now he has 30 Int.

But - by your rules - he now still has no spells available for the day, as he already rested and had none to accumulate.

So, not only was he hosed before the cleric came by, but now he's hosed for the rest of the day as well, until he's able to rest and prepare again the next night.



Now, I know what you'll say, that the wizard only has to wait until they get to the place that will cure him before he rests. But, then, I ask you, how does a character with an Int of ONE know that he should wait to rest? And how does the rest of the party convince him to do so, as he does not understand what they are trying to communicate to him? He will simply rest as soon as he feels as he needs to sleep.


However, by our interpretation of the RAW, using more than just one or two paragraphs to ascertain our beliefs, it could happen this way.

Same wizard, same senario, same wandering cleric, same time frames.

As soon as the Cleric casts Restoration, the wizard now has available spell slots, and his mind has been freshened for the preperation task. He sits down with his spell book and studies for an hour, thus regaining all his spells.

Now, how is our way abusing the poor wizard, who is now able to get all new spells, since the spell slots are not renewed only in the period after rest, but all day?

Yet your way does still leave the poor wizard with no spells for the rest of the day, even though he is eleigible for his full allotment.

Yes, your way does open up some severe abuse.

Even if the wizard were to go straight back to sleep, which would require some sort of chack to make sure he could sleep/rest for 8 straight hours, and then study his book, this still grants your way an additional 8 hours over what our way grants, if not more.

Normal checks including, but not limited to, encounters same as any other rest period.

Your way would allow things like touch of idiocy and feeblemind to be even greater mage slayers than they already are.

How are these mage slayers? I was not aware the spelss did any other damage than lowering mental stats - was there something I missed? No, there wasn't.

Funny how the 5th level Feeblemind spell - your way - is less powerful than the fourth level spell Enervation.

Enervation causes one to lose 1d6 LEVELS which includes one spell of the highest spell level for each character level lost, among other juicy bits. Those spells are not suddenly 'remembered' after the spell wears off, either. Even if it is removed the next round after casting.

Yet, you advocate that a mage hit with Feeblemind should be allowed to 'remember' all his uncast spells, and then still can cast them after the spell is removed, as long as he has not yet rested.

Now, how anyone with scrambled eggs in their skull can remember spells is beyond me.

 

[drnuncheon]

Yup, here's a good one.

Wizard gets hit by Feeblemind. As per your rules, he still has those spells he prepared until he rests. Before the party gets to town, they rest.

Now, as he has only Int of 1, he regains - NO SPELL SLOTS:

Not to beat on someone who's basically on my side, but he does indeed still have the spell slots which he is eligible for from his class, as those are not determined by Int at all. However, he can't fill any empty slots, because his Int is too low.

Also, he does not lose any prepared spells for the slots he still has - only access to them.

Just after he wakes up, a wandering cleric happens by, and the party asks for help. Cleric casts Restoration on the wizard, and now he has 30 Int.

Right. And he'll have access to the slots based solely on his wizard level (which he never lost) until he rests - the other slots are present, but not ready to have a spell put into them.

Again, Scion needs to explain where in the rules it says that the gaining or losing of slots is delayed until the character rests. We all agree that the bonus slots are gained or lost, but some of us believe that gain or loss happens instantly, along with all the other effects of the stat drain, and others of us, which is to say Scion, believe it is a delayed effect, despite the fact that no other effect of stat drain has such a delayed effect.

(And no, skill points don't count, as they are specifically exempted due to the fact that they are a representation of learning over the entire course of the previous level. Spell slots are nothing of the sort.)

J

 

[pyk]

Not to beat on someone who's basically on my side, but he does indeed still have the spell slots which he is eligible for from his class, as those are not determined by Int at all. However, he can't fill any empty slots, because his Int is too low.

Also, he does not lose any prepared spells for the slots he still has - only access to them.

Ah, you didn't notice when I said this particular group was playing by Scion's rules. He stated that a caster gets the number of spells they are entitled to at the time of preperation - which means this caster should not get any, as an intelligence of one does not allow for the casting of spells.

Now, myself, I know the caster would get the class spells, even if his Int was that low, but would not be able to prepare them. Then after the cleric came by would not have to rest again to prepare any spells he is entitled to.

I remember that special little place in the PHB that allows for casters to prepare spells throughout the day if they have any open slots, but this is not at all what Scion is saying, which is what I was trying to show.

Tomorrow when you try to get spells you will get less.

So today I got my spells (stat at X). (climbing up mountain)

If my stat changes, and it is still lower tomorrow, then when I get my spells back I will have less. (going back down the mountain).

You no longer qualify to get them after resting

Luckily it isnt a 'magic bag'. At the time when I got the spells to cast for the day (from resting and such) I got X number of spells. After that it doesnt matter if my stat changes. All that changes is the number of spells I would get 'if I rested and regained my spells right now'. Big difference.

All these are saying exactly what Scion thinks. The available spells for the day is only applicable when the caster has rested for 8 hours and prepared, that once during the day. So, if the caster has an Int of 1 at that time, he has no spells for the day.

Even if he allows for the class spells (which he will now) then the caster is still hosed for the day.

 

[pyk]

Just shows that Scion doesn't mind the players getting badly hosed later, as long as he's got his candy now.