Enhanced Stats and Spells

[drnuncheon]

Ah, you didn't notice when I said this particular group was playing by Scion's rules. He stated that a caster gets the number of spells they are entitled to at the time of preperation - which means this caster should not get any, as an intelligence of one does not allow for the casting of spells.

Well, if that's what he's saying, he's demonstrably wrong:

"A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level."

J

 

[pyk]

Well, if that's what he's saying, he's demonstrably wrong

Goes without saying.

Anyway, I'm bored with this whole arguing with someone who wants lots of crunchy goodness for his character schtick.

It was fun while it lasted, but he just won't see the light, even though there's not a soul that will come and side with him.

Everyone, including folks on the D&D board, tell him he doesn't understand the rules quite right, but, well, he's right and everyone else is wrong, ya know?

Happy Gaming

 

[Scion]

Everything I have quoted for my side you have responded to with 'but it doesn't specifically address loss of spell slots for lowered stats'. That's what I mean by lack of examples not being concrete evidence.

The 'it doesnt state it' is perfectly legal, since everything that does actually kill memorized spells says it specifically. Therefore, when something does it then it says so, when it doesnt then it doesnt say so.

Everything that has been said so far however works just as well under my interpretation as yours. Care to find any flaws?

So, please, again: once piece of concrete evidence, one example, one rule that might be interpreted as positively saying 'you don't lose spell slots for lowered int'.

Other than the fact that the rules do not say that it happens? lets see.. you want me to disprove some rule that you have more or less just made up wholecloth.

Lets see here.

Pg 53: She is limited to a certain number of spells of each spell level per day, according to her class level. A wizard must prepare spells ahead of time by gtting a good nights sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decideds which spells to prepare. A wizards bonus spells are based on int.

There we are, prepare. They are all prepared at the same time with that 1 hour of studying after an appropriate period of rest to refresh the slots.

Pg 154: Rest: to prepare her daily spells, a wizard must have a clear mind. To clear her mind, the wiard must first sleep for 8 hours.

This is just for reference.

Pg 154: Spell preperation time: afer resting, a wizard must study her spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If the character wants to prepare all her spells, the process takes 1 hour.

Reference again. It might take a shorter period of time, if the wizard still has spells prepared from the day before.

Pg 154: Spell selection and preperation: During the study period, a wizard chooses which spells to prepare. The act of prepareing a spell is actually the first step in casting it... If the wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that she has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells.

Notice the abandoning and such. During the study period they choose which slots to empty, which to fill, and which to leave purposefully emtpy.

Pg 155: Spell selection and preperation: When preparing spells for the day, the wizard can leave some spell slots open.

Notice, you choose which to leave open when preparing. Just because you get some later for some reason does not mean that you can use them, they have to be left open purposefully during this time.

pg 155: prepared spell retention: once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she casts the prescribed components to trigger it (or until she abandons it).

Notice that it does not mention a stat lowering as getting rid of these spells. Just like no other place in either the phb nor the dmg, that I have found so far, states anything about loseing those spell slots. Not even any of the places that talk about ability damage, or penalties, or the spells, nowhere! Why this massive omission if not because it simply isnt a rule.

Pg 156: daily readying of spells: Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest, after which he spends 15 minutes concentrating. During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies his mind to cast his daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh himself, the character does not regain the spell slots he used up the day before.

Again, you must rest before gaining any spell slots. This is stated time and again. Also, all spells are gotten then, which means that you must have those slots ready to use at that time. A small extrapolation would require having such items on at least 8 hours in advance, but this part could be construed as a houserul, unimportant however.

Taken all together all of this supports my claims of needing to have the item on when preparing/gaining those spell slots after resting. Since then those spells are in ones mind then taking off the ring or lowering the stat wouldnt do anything, it would simply change how many slots you get 'next time you get to regain your spells'. Big difference.

Now I know that you all wont agree with every point I made, that isnt a problem. However, I think it is clear that what I have said could easily fall within the raw.

Also, as I stated before, having an email from customer service is effectively useless. They are wrong much more often than they are right, they almost seem to have a board that they throw darts at to get their answer. The reason I have heard for this is that they have a lot of different games that they have to know about, and d&d is only a small blip on their screen. Plus it takes a very knowledgeable rules expert to really be able to come up with useful answers. So while they may do a good job for other games, they do not do a good job for d&d. Hence useing their answer helps neither side at all, it is at best a nonanswer.

 

[glass]

Yes, because as soon as you've been feebleminded, then you no longer qualify for the spell slots, so the spell slots can no longer have any spells in them, as they do not exist.

Now, I ambivalent about the issue of bonus spell slots, but this one is definately wrong. Your normal (class table progression) slots most definately do not go away. If your controlling ability score drops below 10 you cannot use them, but they are still there and and ready for use if you get your score back.

Similarly, and this is the clincher, if your ability score drops to 12, you can still use any 2nd level spells you have prepared, whatever slots they are prepared in.


glass.

 

[Scion]

Wizard gets hit by Feeblemind. As per your rules, he still has those spells he prepared until he rests. Before the party gets to town, they rest.

Yep, even with your rules he would still have some. But with my way he simply keeps what he has memorized. You force them to forget some for no reason. But you certainly cant force them to forget those that are there from level, if you are doing that then you are so far into houserul territory it is just crazy.

Now, as he has only Int of 1, he regains - NO SPELL SLOTS:

And this matters how? He isnt able to cast spells anyway, so whatever he has memorized simply stay there without usefullness, nor will you be able to get any new ones. Great. perfectly self consistant.

and loses all he had prepared, as he is not eligible for any, now.

Oh? Except that the rules I have quoted to you before specifically state that you only lose them by casting them, forgetting on purpose, or by special abilities that specifically state that you lose them. None of that says that they will forget the ones they have, none of that says that he will go down to zero spells.

You are trying to turn a powerful spell into something that makes the mage have 0 spells memorized, that should be very apparently wrong to everyone. That directly contridicts the rules. Along with making the spell much too powerful.

Much better is my way of doing things, which follow perfectly with the raw luckily for me.

Just after he wakes up, a wandering cleric happens by, and the party asks for help. Cleric casts Restoration on the wizard, and now he has 30 Int.

But - by your rules - he now still has no spells available for the day, as he already rested and had none to accumulate.

He still has those that he had before, and I said that it was an 'extrapolation' and 'possible house rule' to make anyone need to have an effect that changes the amount of spell slots to be there for the entire 8 hours of rest.

Of course by your way he had 0 spells no matter what anyway, which is completely false to begin with.

So, my rules (sans extrapolation) there is no problem as he rested and it is time to prepare. Your way, he gets his spells back. No contridiction in the two paths at that point, strange how you are so vehement about mine being wrong.

Yes, your way does open up some severe abuse.

You still havent shown an abuse yet. Your way, however, would allow the whole party to share a few rings of wizardry, pass around items that boost your casting stat to get a few extra spell castings. Sounds like that is creeping up on the abuse line, or left it behind awhile ago.

How are these mage slayers? I was not aware the spelss did any other damage than lowering mental stats - was there something I missed? No, there wasn't.

Funny how the 5th level Feeblemind spell - your way - is less powerful than the fourth level spell Enervation.

Actually your way makes feeblemind the end all/be all of stopping mages. If you are worried that they might be able to do something to you feeblemind them. Even if they somehow get rid of it instantly they still have no spells remaining!. Which means they are glorified commoners. Not bad for a 5th level spell. Effectively it is a save or die that the wizard has a very large penalty for.

My way? they get healed and are still in the action, as it should be.

Oh, and enervation is d4. touch of idiocy is d6. Which means that the touch might make you unable to cast your higher level slots (or possibly even all spells), takes away up to 3 spells from your pool, and is 2 levels lower!

Enervation says it gets rid of spells, touch of idiocy does not. touch of idiocy is already very strong, no need to make it even more powerful.

Yet, you advocate that a mage hit with Feeblemind should be allowed to 'remember' all his uncast spells, and then still can cast them after the spell is removed, as long as he has not yet rested.

Yep, of course it costs time and resources to fix the mage, so it isnt like it is free. The mage is out for at least one round, as is another character. The spell is already harsh enough as is, incredibly strong. Your desire to make it erase all spells from the mages mind pushes it up into 9th level spell range, or simply not allowable.

Now, how anyone with scrambled eggs in their skull can remember spells is beyond me.

I am sure that 'casting' spells is beyond you as well. Since, once they recover their facilities, they get their ability back then they should be able to cast spells. It isnt like dieing, dieing states that you lose all of your spells prepared. None of these others do. Notice a theme? Lots of things state that they do it, but none of the ones that you want to do it say it. Since it is so proliferant elsewhere why the omission? Possibly because it 'isnt' an omission, you simply dont lose memorized spells with stat damage.

 

[Scion]

Well, if that's what he's saying, he's demonstrably wrong:

"A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level."

J

No that is not what I was saying, nor what I said ;/ pyk has shown a demonstrated lack of ability to actually read what I am posting.

Hopefully you will be better at this drnuncheon.

I can site more examples from the dmg at this point, but it shouldnt really be necissary. Stat damage entries everywhere? silent about loseing spells. Daily allotments? only talk about gaining them when memorizing, which happens after you rest and then prepare. leaving slots open? you do this when you prepare for the day, the book says that. Special abilities that remove slots? they always say that they do. casting stat too low? doesnt mean you lose slots (especially not slots from class like pyk is apparently trying to slide in there without cause), it only states that you cannot 'cast spells that are too high of a level'. Again, no mention at all about loseing prepared spells.

Now, either this is a huge, glaring omission, very scary in its magnitude. Or people are simply assuming things not in evidence. Which makes both interpretations equally valid.

of course personally I find that my way has many less abuses, and thereby is better in that aspect. So if I have to choose one of the two, I will go with the less abuseable one.. the one that doesnt make feeblemind the end all- be all mage destroyer for instance ;/ it already is powerful enough without killing a vast majority of your spell list (or all, as pyk touted above).

 

[glass]

Oh, fer cryin' out loud.

The wizard puts on the ring and the headband, sleeps for 8 hours, takes it off. You claim he still has the doubled (and bonus) slots.

Since a prepared spell specifically doesn't go away until it is cast,you are claiming that the wizard could basically have those spells for the rest of his life.

Yeah, the wizard can have a couple of extra slots prepared for the rest of his life for the tiny little opportunity cost of NEVER CASTING ANOTHER SPELL! Funnily enough, I don't see that as terribly unbalancing.


glass.

 

[hong]

Yeah, the wizard can have a couple of extra slots prepared for the rest of his life for the tiny little opportunity cost of NEVER CASTING ANOTHER SPELL! Funnily enough, I don't see that as terribly unbalancing.


glass.

You can't possibly be serious.

Oh, hang on, you ARE serious.

 

[glass]

Yup, here's a good one.

Wizard gets hit by Feeblemind. As per your rules, he still has those spells he prepared until he rests. Before the party gets to town, they rest.

Now, as he has only Int of 1, he regains - NO SPELL SLOTS:
and loses all he had prepared, as he is not eligible for any, now.

That is by your 'rules', not by Scion's or mine. As a (presumably, with an Int of 30) high level wizard he has plenty of spell slots. While his Int is 1, he can't use them, but as soon as...

Just after he wakes up, a wandering cleric happens by, and the party asks for help. Cleric casts Restoration on the wizard, and now he has 30 Int. But - by your rules - he now still has no spells available for the day, as he already rested and had none to accumulate.

...he regains the ability to cast them all (except, possibly, any bonus spells due to high ability scores).

glass.

 

[glass]

Yeah, the wizard can have a couple of extra slots prepared for the rest of his life for the tiny little opportunity cost of NEVER CASTING ANOTHER SPELL! Funnily enough, I don't see that as terribly unbalancing.

You can't possibly be serious.

Oh, hang on, you ARE serious.

Of course I am serious. Actually, I was exagerating slightly: he only looses one of his extra spells for each one he cast, so he could retain a few extra slots by only casting a couple of spells for the rest of his life.

There may be arguments against Scion's position, but the fact that a wizard theoretically could carry a few extra spells for the rest of his life (while true) really isn't one of them.


glass.