Enhanced Stats and Spells

[drnuncheon]

doesnt necissarily follow, just like you dont lose skill points when your int drops.

Of course, that is specifically called out as an exception, as you point out.

It states it specifically for con and hp (does change) and for int and skill points (dont change). So therefore it should state it specifically for something as important as this as well..

One could easily say 'Saving throws are very important, therefore it should state specifically what happens in that case - oh, it doesn't, so my Fortitude save won't be affected when my Con drops from 18 to 1. Skills are very important, therefore it should specifically state what happens - but it doesn't, so my Knowledge (arcana) isn't affected when my Int plummets due to that feeblemind' At the end of that you're left with ability damage that has no ill effects whatsoever.

Hit points and skill points have something very important in common: the benefit is based not only on one's stat but on one's level, unlike skill rolls, saving throws, and the like, where the stat bonus is added in once. That is why they are called out specifically - they are special cases, not examples.

One could argue that spells, too, are a 'special case', but since there's no indication of that, we need to go with the base rule: a lower stat is a lower stat, and so the bonus is no longer there. That's the default condition.

So why don't we do the reverse with a raised mental stat, and have additional spells accrue instantly? Because the slot needs to be 'primed' by a full night's rest, as per the magic rules.

This is the only way to rule it consistently.

J

 

[Scion]

Of course, that is specifically called out as an exception, as you point out.

Yep, just like it should be stated one way or another for the spell slots.

One could easily say 'Saving throws are very important, therefore it should state specifically what happens in that case - oh, it doesn't, so my Fortitude save won't be affected when my Con drops from 18 to 1.

But it does say what happens, the rules are very clear for this point. So it is moot.

Skills are very important, therefore it should specifically state what happens - but it doesn't, so my Knowledge (arcana) isn't affected when my Int plummets due to that feeblemind' At the end of that you're left with ability damage that has no ill effects whatsoever.

But the game does say what happens to your skills when your stats drop.

It, however, does not state what happens to all of your bonus spells when your stat drops. It would make an already incredibly powerful spell that much more so. That is not needed, nor wanted, nor warrented.

Hit points and skill points have something very important in common: the benefit is based not only on one's stat but on one's level, unlike skill rolls, saving throws, and the like, where the stat bonus is added in once. That is why they are called out specifically - they are special cases, not examples.

The game tries to state things that happen as best as possible. These things need to be stated so that people know what is going on. Too bad it isnt.

There is no 'general rule' that these things are exceptions to, because the spell rules arent like the +'s from stats.

One could argue that spells, too, are a 'special case', but since there's no indication of that, we need to go with the base rule: a lower stat is a lower stat, and so the bonus is no longer there. That's the default condition.

What basic rule? What page is it on? Where does it state that loseing the stat will make you lose those bonus spells?

Not be able to gain them if you were to get your spells right now? Sure. But that isnt the point at all, you already have them, the job is already done.

so you cant 'gain' them right now? who cares? you already have gained them. Now, what happens when the stat goes down. Why would you lose them? There is no general rule for that.

So why don't we do the reverse with a raised mental stat, and have additional spells accrue instantly? Because the slot needs to be 'primed' by a full night's rest, as per the magic rules.

yep, and so it cant/shouldnt be able to be 'unprimed' so rapidly just by losing a few points of stats. Good example. Works perfectly for my case

This is the only way to rule it consistently.

The way I suggest is perfectly consistant with the raw, until a general rule or specific rule can be found. Finding exceptions to an unwritten rule is not helpful, unwritten rules are by definition not useful in these sorts of debates.

with the plus side that the way I am advocating is much less abusive than the way you are stating. If I have to choose between the two I will choose my interpretation of the raw. You may stick with your interpretation if you like

 

[drnuncheon]

It, however, does not state what happens to all of your bonus spells when your stat drops.

Is there a specific exception for spells? No? Then they fall under the same category as everything else, do they not? Yes.

It would make an already incredibly powerful spell that much more so. That is not needed, nor wanted, nor warrented.

So say you. That's an opinion, not a fact.

What basic rule? What page is it on? Where does it state that loseing the stat will make you lose those bonus spells?

The one I quoted above. You just don't want to see it.

Not be able to gain them if you were to get your spells right now? Sure. But that isnt the point at all, you already have them, the job is already done.
(snip)
yep, and so it cant/shouldnt be able to be 'unprimed' so rapidly just by losing a few points of stats. Good example. Works perfectly for my case

Doesn't matter. You're still suddenly trying to carry ten pounds of arcane power in a five pound bag. Doesn't work.

If your bag got larger (that is, your stat increased), you'd still have the same amount of power in it, until you were able to fill it up the rest of the way - that's why there's a delay when the stat increases.

Either way, the stat change happens immediately - you gain or lose the slots immediately - you just can't take advantage of the increase immediately.

There is no indication in the RAW that there is any sort of delayed effect for ability changes. The slots appear or disappear immediately. The fact that the new slots from a raised stat are not usable instantly is a completely separate issue, and is a very different thing from the slots 'waiting' to appear until you rest.

Instead, you want to posit a mechanism whereby some effects of a stat change happen instantly, and others wait for an indeterminate amount of time. There is no indication of this in the rules whatsoever.

J

 

[Scion]

Is there a specific exception for spells? No? Then they fall under the same category as everything else, do they not? Yes.

Is there a general rule for spells with which you are coming to this conclusion? No? Do you have anything useful to back up your statement? No? hmm..

The one I quoted above. You just don't want to see it.

It isnt relevant in the way you are trying to use it, or if it is then it is in dire needs of being clarified.

Doesn't matter. You're still suddenly trying to carry ten pounds of arcane power in a five pound bag. Doesn't work.

Luckily it isnt a 'magic bag'. At the time when I got the spells to cast for the day (from resting and such) I got X number of spells. After that it doesnt matter if my stat changes. All that changes is the number of spells I would get 'if I rested and regained my spells right now'. Big difference.

Something is changing either way, but how it is applied at the time we are coming to different conclusions, and I feel that mine leads to much less abuse.

This isnt directly like skills, but it works in a similar fashion in one regard. If I climbed a mountain earlier today and at the top my strength gets drained I dont suddenly fall all the way down the mountain, I have already gotten to the high point.

Same way with the spells, I have already received the slots, I am not going to lose them simply by having the amount that I 'would have received' go down.

Either way, the stat change happens immediately - you gain or lose the slots immediately - you just can't take advantage of the increase immediately.

So you are saying that if you are feebleminded, and then cured nearly instantly then you would lose a whole lot of spells for the day, with no ability to get them back? Not a chance, that just doesnt wash. For an effect that huge I believe that the spell description would make mention of it, if for no other reason than reminder text.

Your ability to rest and regain 'new' spells has gone down, but that does not mean that your ability to retain your 'current' spells goes down. The two do not necissarily meet.

There is no indication in the RAW that there is any sort of delayed effect for ability changes. The slots appear or disappear immediately.

Says you. The slots that you 'could get' if you rested dissapear and appear willy nilly, but that doesnt mean that already prepared slots do the same.

Instead, you want to posit a mechanism whereby some effects of a stat change happen instantly, and others wait for an indeterminate amount of time. There is no indication of this in the rules whatsoever.

No, the effects of the stat change, but the effects that the stats have 'already done' do not.

It seems to me that you are trying to make the rules do something that they do not and there is no indication in the rules to do what you are proposing.

The way I have said poses less abuse, in that light it is much better. It also seems to follow the raw just fine, pretty much to the t. So which would you pick?

 

[pyk]

Is there a general rule for spells with which you are coming to this conclusion? No? Do you have anything useful to back up your statement? No? hmm..

Under the bard description, it poses that the 'number of spells a bard can cast' is regulated by Charisma. Under sorcerer it says the same thing. So, if these two classes get Charisma damage, does this mean they can still cast all their spells?

It isnt relevant in the way you are trying to use it, or if it is then it is in dire needs of being clarified.

Seems pretty self-explanatory, at least to most people.

Luckily it isnt a 'magic bag'. At the time when I got the spells to cast for the day (from resting and such) I got X number of spells. After that it doesnt matter if my stat changes. All that changes is the number of spells I would get 'if I rested and regained my spells right now'. Big difference.

Something is changing either way, but how it is applied at the time we are coming to different conclusions, and I feel that mine leads to much less abuse.

This isnt directly like skills, but it works in a similar fashion in one regard. If I climbed a mountain earlier today and at the top my strength gets drained I dont suddenly fall all the way down the mountain, I have already gotten to the high point.

Same way with the spells, I have already received the slots, I am not going to lose them simply by having the amount that I 'would have received' go down.

It works absolutely nothing like skills. It is not a skill, it is an ability. In that way, it actually works more like a feat.

If a character has spring attack, which qualifies the character for whirlwind attack, then climbs into full plate armor, can the character commit a whirlwind attack?

No, because the character no longer qualifies for whirlwind, as the full plate armor negates the spring attack feat. Therefore, while wearing full plate armor, the whirlwind feat is also not available.

Same with the spells. While the ability (damaged or otherwise) is lowered, the character no longer has the requirements for the spell slots. If the spell slots are not there, then they cannot have any spells in them, so they are lost.

You don't 'receive' slots, you 'qualify' for slots.

So you are saying that if you are feebleminded, and then cured nearly instantly then you would lose a whole lot of spells for the day, with no ability to get them back? Not a chance, that just doesnt wash. For an effect that huge I believe that the spell description would make mention of it, if for no other reason than reminder text.

Your ability to rest and regain 'new' spells has gone down, but that does not mean that your ability to retain your 'current' spells goes down. The two do not necissarily meet.

Yes, because as soon as you've been feebleminded, then you no longer qualify for the spell slots, so the spell slots can no longer have any spells in them, as they do not exist.

Says you. The slots that you 'could get' if you rested dissapear and appear willy nilly, but that doesnt mean that already prepared slots do the same.

Now, THAT'S a mature response.

No, the effects of the stat change, but the effects that the stats have 'already done' do not.

It seems to me that you are trying to make the rules do something that they do not and there is no indication in the rules to do what you are proposing.

The way I have said poses less abuse, in that light it is much better. It also seems to follow the raw just fine, pretty much to the t. So which would you pick?

Yet, the stats do not have an effect. They allow the character to meet the requirements for certain feats, and abilities.

The way you have said is actually an abuse of the rules, not limiting abuse. If the 'effect' of the ability has already been accomplished, then why can one not continue using Dodge feat if one's Dexterity drops below 13? In the case you have posed, then one may continue using the Dodge feat after receiving Dexterity damage as the 'effect' of the ability, i.e. qualifying for the feat, has already been done. Sadly, this is not true. It does not mean that losing the Dodge bonus from the feat means that person you were fighting earlier suddenly damages you. It means that the person you are currently fighting might be able to a little easier, from that point on.

Same with the spells, obviously. It does not mean the magic missile you cast an hour ago didn't happen, which is a silly analogy to make in the first place. It means that the spell slots you currently qualify for is reduced. If that means you lose some uncast spells, then it means you lose some uncast spells.

Either way, the caster in question, having the prime ability damaged, no longer qualifies to have those spell slots, so can no longer have spells prepared in slots he no longer has.

 

[Scion]

It works absolutely nothing like skills. It is not a skill, it is an ability. In that way, it actually works more like a feat.

It works just like skills in the way I posted, not in other ways. If you will kindly actually read what I post it will help greatly.

You don't 'receive' slots, you 'qualify' for slots.

If you dont get them in the first place then you cant prepare them. So either you have them or you dont.

Yes, because as soon as you've been feebleminded, then you no longer qualify for the spell slots, so the spell slots can no longer have any spells in them, as they do not exist.

You no longer qualify to get them after resting, not lose them once you already have them.

Big difference.

Now, THAT'S a mature response.

Same wording as the other poster, if he feels that I dont deserve respect than neither does he. Of course I should have been more diplomatic about it, I will try to be so in the future. Although I will still be direct.

Yet, the stats do not have an effect. They allow the character to meet the requirements for certain feats, and abilities.

And to cast spells. And which to get when preparing. But, nothing says that once prepared lowering the stat makes them go away.

The touch of idiocy spell goes out of its way to remind you that if your score drops too low you wont be able to cast your higher level spells, but it is silent about loseing spell slots. As are all of the other spells which drop your scores. So either there is either a gross oversite, or you simply dont lose those spells you have prepared.

The way you have said is actually an abuse of the rules, not limiting abuse. If the 'effect' of the ability has already been accomplished, then why can one not continue using Dodge feat if one's Dexterity drops below 13? In the case you have posed, then one may continue using the Dodge feat after receiving Dexterity damage as the 'effect' of the ability, i.e. qualifying for the feat, has already been done.

No, this is simply a case of you still not reading what I post.

Feats are not the same as this issue, at least not in the way you are posting.

If I dodge someone and they miss me because of that dodge bonus, and then three rounds later I lose access to dodge for whatever reason I do not go back and suddenly get hit.

Just like here, I have already taken my level and stat into account, gotten my prepared slots. The stat is done with those for now, you can modify the stat all you like but it wont change the amount of slots that you have. Neither up nor down. This works out perfectly to avoid many abuses.

The way I am touting - less rules hassle, less bookeeping, less abuses.

The way you are touting - more rules hassle, more bookeeping, more abuses.

 

[pyk]

Under the bard description, it poses that the 'number of spells a bard can cast' is regulated by Charisma. Under sorcerer it says the same thing. So, if these two classes get Charisma damage, does this mean they can still cast all their spells?

No answer?

It works just like skills in the way I posted, not in other ways. If you will kindly actually read what I post it will help greatly.

Everyone else feels that class features (which spellcasting is) are like feats, not skills.

If you dont get them in the first place then you cant prepare them. So either you have them or you dont.



You no longer qualify to get them after resting, not lose them once you already have them.

Big difference.

Yes, there is a big difference.

The book says the ability scores govern the amount of spells the character can cast. It then goes on to say that certain classes must prepare them first. Where the book actually states that any class gets a certain number of prepared spells per day, well, it's not there.

Quote it from the book if you can show this for fact.

And to cast spells. And which to get when preparing. But, nothing says that once prepared lowering the stat makes them go away.

Mis-worded. By abilities, I meant to say class features. Spellcasting is a class feature, which certainly do work just like feats.

And, again, please quote from the book where it says that a caster gets a certain number of prepared spells per day. Because all I find is that characters get to CAST a certain number of spells per day, of which wizards and divine casters must prepare their spells ahead of time.

The touch of idiocy spell goes out of its way to remind you that if your score drops too low you wont be able to cast your higher level spells, but it is silent about loseing spell slots. As are all of the other spells which drop your scores. So either there is either a gross oversite, or you simply dont lose those spells you have prepared.

Just because it is silent, does not mean the rules do not apply.

No, this is simply a case of you still not reading what I post.

Feats are not the same as this issue, at least not in the way you are posting.

If I dodge someone and they miss me because of that dodge bonus, and then three rounds later I lose access to dodge for whatever reason I do not go back and suddenly get hit.

Just like here, I have already taken my level and stat into account, gotten my prepared slots. The stat is done with those for now, you can modify the stat all you like but it wont change the amount of slots that you have. Neither up nor down. This works out perfectly to avoid many abuses.

Spellcasting is a class feature. Class features are in all ways just the same as feats. See the generic classes in Unearthed Arcana to show this.

Again, one does not 'get' prepared slots. One gets a certain number of spells that may be cast, depending on the requisite ability. If the ability is not high enough for bonus spells, then one does not have bonus spells. Otherwise, those two spells you keep refering to are next to worthless to cast on anyone, as they can be cured right away and just keep plugging away with the same spells, one round of spells lost, maybe, unless the NPCs cleric heals him before the next round. Good for this to happen to a PC, as they get to have the spells still. Bad for this to happen to the BBEG, as then the PCs all get hosed by him.

The way I am touting - less rules hassle, less bookeeping, less abuses.

The way you are touting - more rules hassle, more bookeeping, more abuses.

You talk of abuses. Time to actually show some, because I, and others, have shown how your way abuses the rules. Yet you have shown - nothing.

 

[drnuncheon]

Luckily it isnt a 'magic bag'. At the time when I got the spells to cast for the day (from resting and such) I got X number of spells. After that it doesnt matter if my stat changes. All that changes is the number of spells I would get 'if I rested and regained my spells right now'. Big difference.

In other cases that affect the number of spells you can cast - for example, level drain - the spells are lost immediately:

If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

As we can see, not only are the slots lost immediately, but it's taken from spells you haven't cast yet.

This isnt directly like skills, but it works in a similar fashion in one regard. If I climbed a mountain earlier today and at the top my strength gets drained I dont suddenly fall all the way down the mountain, I have already gotten to the high point.

Correct. And the effects of the spells you cast earlier are not changed, nor are the saving throws. But your attempt to climb down the mountain is affected, as are all of your future castings.

Same way with the spells, I have already received the slots, I am not going to lose them simply by having the amount that I 'would have received' go down.

Sorry, see the Energy Drain example. As the only other effect where one could potentially lose slots, I think it's more than fair to use that as precedent.

With your rules, a caster could don a ring of wizardry, fill up all the slots, and then pass it off to his friends, because the slots won't go away when he takes off the ring. He could put on a headband of intellect for the bonus slots, too, and then keep them around until he cast them.

J

 

[Scion]

In other cases that affect the number of spells you can cast - for example, level drain - the spells are lost immediately:

Exactly, and it specificaly states that. Point for me.

Correct. And the effects of the spells you cast earlier are not changed, nor are the saving throws. But your attempt to climb down the mountain is affected, as are all of your future castings.

Tomorrow when you try to get spells you will get less.

So today I got my spells (stat at X). (climbing up mountain)

If my stat changes, and it is still lower tomorrow, then when I get my spells back I will have less. (going back down the mountain).

Sorry, see the Energy Drain example. As the only other effect where one could potentially lose slots, I think it's more than fair to use that as precedent.

Since the energy drain example proves my point then why are you sorry?

It is listed because it is a special case. Whereas not loseing them is the normal case. At least by what was said above (about the normal case not being stated whereas exceptions are), so the spells must be kept when the stat goes down.

With your rules, a caster could don a ring of wizardry, fill up all the slots, and then pass it off to his friends, because the slots won't go away when he takes off the ring. He could put on a headband of intellect for the bonus slots, too, and then keep them around until he cast them.

J

No, the caster still has to rest for 8 hours with his new spell pool total in order to regain those. As normal.

The way you all are trying to say here double penalizes people with an already weak item.

My way, which follows the raw as much as yours, says that your total current wont change until you rest again.

Easy, and follows the rules directly. Along with my way preventing abuse as you listed above.

 

[Scion]

No answer?

Already answered, several times. You are able to cast the spells that you have gotten for the day. Done and done.

Mis-worded. By abilities, I meant to say class features. Spellcasting is a class feature, which certainly do work just like feats.

Strnagely skills are class features as much as feats. You gain more skills as you gain levels, gain more feats as you gain levels, same sort of thing.

Doesnt matter though, because either way you state it the way I am describing works fine.

You talk of abuses. Time to actually show some, because I, and others, have shown how your way abuses the rules. Yet you have shown - nothing.

What have you shown that my way abuses the rules? Nothing that has been shown so far.

Your way would allow things like touch of idiocy and feeblemind to be even greater mage slayers than they already are.

Booking keeping with how the spell slots change back and forth as the player has to figure out how many and which spells are lost everytime the stat changes.

By your logic I could create a spell that would simply change the targets casting stat (or all mental stats) to some number between 1 and 9 and then back again, thus eliminating a huge portion of their spell power for the day.

why dont any of these spells that currently do reduce stats mention anywhere about killing spells as well? They go out of their way to make sure you know that you may not be able to cast the higher level slots, but are silent on the issue of spell slots. All of them.

Which leads me to believe that it is because they simply dont change. Too much bookeeping, too much power added to already powerful spells, too much abuse just waiting to happen.

So, do you have any actual ways where my way leads to abuse? There have been zero so far. Only less hassle for everyone, nonbreaking of spells, and not having to worry about abuse from your arena.