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D&D 5E Enhancing Vecna: Eve of Ruin *SPOILERS*

That is what I am trying to do. Become a god is much more normal than remaking the multiverse, so it is easier for me to suspend my disbelieft
It’s fairly normal for something that is unashamedly trying to be the Avengers: Endgame of D&D. Making the stakes marginally lower doesn’t really seem any more believable, and seems object-defeating.

Anyway, if the gods don’t care, why should the players?
 

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Thommy H-H

Adventurer
It’s fairly normal for something that is unashamedly trying to be the Avengers: Endgame of D&D. Making the stakes marginally lower doesn’t really seem any more believable, and seems object-defeating.

Anyway, if the gods don’t care, why should the players?
I feel like this is kind of coming at it backwards: the gods demonstrably don't care in the adventure, which robs the premise of some of its internal logic. You need to dial back the scope so the fact that the gods aren't involved directly makes sense.

To put it in perspective, there's a bit where the players can literally converse with Tiamat while in Avernus. Furthermore, the dossier in the appendix establishes that Tiamat canonically created the Material Plane (Fizban's left the truth vague; this outright says she and Bahamut made the First World, and it shattered into different realities, and the existence of Sardior is a minor plot point) and says she is still suspected to have a soft spot for her creations. Yet, the situation is that Tiamat lets the players leave with the section of the Rod they need unhindered if they explain why they need it. So, in other words, you get to explicitly tell one of the setting's greater gods, who actually made a good-sized portion of the multiverse, that there's a dude who's going to destroy literally everything, and her response is basically, "Oh chill. Good luck then, I guess."

And, look, you can make it work. The adventure gives you excuses. But the problem is that 5e is very careful to never quite pin down some of the metaphysics of the multiverse, so you never really know what gods are actually in the Outer Planes, whether they're the gods of just one setting of the Material, or they're fundamental planar embodiments that (to paraphrase Discworld) have a lot of hats and a talent for voices. We don't even know if Tiamat is on Avernus by choice or she's a prisoner there. It's kept deliberately vague. Now, again, this is all fine, but the adventure is asking us to accept that the whole of existence is at stake, and the most obvious question I would expect players to ask is, "Why don't we find whoever's actually running things and let them know?" And you can't give them an answer, because 5e doesn't have a canonical uber-god of good they can go hit up. Bahamut? Mystra? Pelor? Primus? The adventure hand-waves it away.

That's why my answer is to just lower the stakes. 'Very Bad Dude wants to Become a God' is still pretty epic. It's probably how a lot of campaigns that go all the way to level 20 end. It's literally how the first season of Critical Role ends - and it's even the same Very Bad Dude too! So I feel like they could have just gone with that and avoided the awkward metaphysical and cosmological questions that arise from a situation where the entire multiverse is potentially going to get blown up. That's kind of too big, even for a high-level D&D campaign. That's a situation where you'd expect all the gods to come together and summon the mightiest heroes from across space and time. You want basically every named character showing up. Xanathar and Elminster joining forces. Drizzt getting Mordenkainen to enchant his weapons or something. The Dragon of Tyr getting involved. The actual Spelljammer ferrying everyone to wherever Vecna is hiding out. The Lady of Pain appears to save the day at the last minute. All that junk. To be clear, that would suck as an actual adventure, but it's what the premise as written demands.

My preference, therefore, is rather than try to wrangle the premise into something that makes sense with what's presented, throw out the premise altogether. And, again, it doesn't materially change anything in the adventure. You never really know how Vecna is planning to do what he's doing, and there isn't even much in the way of an explanation as to what happens if he succeeds. It's just, like, "the multiverse becomes a very bad place indeed!" Okay? I'll just narrate the complete restructuring of existence to my players, shall I? Any little vignettes I can slip in? No? Okay, great. So you dodge a lot of awkwardness if you just say that Vecna is doing something that's bad news, like trying to become a powerful god, or even that no one is quite sure what he's up to, but it's probably pretty shady on account of he's Vecna.
 

I feel like this is kind of coming at it backwards: the gods demonstrably don't care in the adventure, which robs the premise of some of its internal logic. You need to dial back the scope so the fact that the gods aren't involved directly makes sense.
As I pointed out Vecna can deal with gods. Thanks to reality altering obelisks he has been planning this manoeuvre since the dawn of time. It makes a lot more sense that the gods can’t intervene because they have already been neutralised than that they don’t care.
 

afroakuma

Explorer
As it is, it's all a bit crossover for crossover's sake. If the multiverse is under threat, I want to see worlds trembling, the pillars of reality collapsing, time and space unravelling, not hunting werewolves in Krynn and helping the crew of a crashed spelljammer overcome their personal conflicts. The adventure doesn't fit the stakes imo.
This, so much. The casino adventure in particular felt like a similar futile and irritating casino detour during a time-critical galactic conflict from a popular film series. "Let's do an homage to that thing nobody liked!" is not exactly my first thought when putting a storyline together. :p
 


Thommy H-H

Adventurer
As I pointed out Vecna can deal with gods. Thanks to reality altering obelisks he has been planning this manoeuvre since the dawn of time. It makes a lot more sense that the gods can’t intervene because they have already been neutralised than that they don’t care.
Yeah, that's also a solution, but I think it requires more steps because his ritual is incredibly vague anyway, and you don't lose anything from the adventure by changing that one aspect of it. Like, you can run the whole thing precisely as written, except for whenever it mentions Vecna's ultimate plan, you just substitute "ascend to godhood".

In the interests of clarity, I like the adventure in general terms. I think the individual chapters are pretty fun and hit all the correct notes for their various settings. You get a little taste of everything from 5e, and they all feel quite different in scope and theme. You get a spooky haunted house, some weird war robot stuff, a silly casino episode - it's all good. I just think the ULTIMATE SHOWDOWN OF ULTIMATE DESTINY stuff feels tacked on because they felt they had to meet the moment of the 50th anniversary and the end of (this stage of) 5e. The adventure - for me - doesn't flow from the premise. It's a generic high-level Vecna-thwarting romp that has to bear the weight of too much risk.
 

Yeah, that's also a solution, but I think it requires more steps because his ritual is incredibly vague anyway, and you don't lose anything from the adventure by changing that one aspect of it. Like, you can run the whole thing precisely as written, except for whenever it mentions Vecna's ultimate plan, you just substitute "ascend to godhood".
Vecna is already a god, he doesn’t need to do that again. Been there, done that, bought the tee shirt. And why should the players care about one more god when there are already dozens? So yes, it absolutely matters.

And because he has been a god and moved beyond he can play twelve dimensional chess with reality. His plans seem vague because they are beyond human comprehension.

If you are having problems with this adventure it’s not because your stakes are too high, it’s because they are not high enough.
 


dave2008

Legend
It’s fairly normal for something that is unashamedly trying to be the Avengers: Endgame of D&D. Making the stakes marginally lower doesn’t really seem any more believable, and seems object-defeating.
Maybe to you, but this isn't about you. I want to make the adventure my own, so it is important it makes sense to me. I am not looking to make something to publish. This is for me and my group only. If it makes more sense to me, that is good enough. It doesn't have to meet your or anyone else's sensibilities.
Anyway, if the gods don’t care, why should the players?
What gods and mortals care about are, by their very nature, different. Vecna as a god is much more of threat to mortals than a dead or banished Vecna. Vecna as a god is only a marginal threat for most gods.
 

dave2008

Legend
As I pointed out Vecna can deal with gods. Thanks to reality altering obelisks he has been planning this manoeuvre since the dawn of time. It makes a lot more sense that the gods can’t intervene because they have already been neutralised than that they don’t care.
That makes some sense, except Vecna wasn't around at the dawn of time. Many gods were. Vecna is an ascended mortal and came to be well after the dawn of time. He has to learn many of the "secrets" that the old gods just know.
 

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