Ennie-ness of ENworld

[Herschel]

In effect, yes, because the pool the judges have to choose from is flawed.

It's like the Oscar Nomination campaigns movie studios run. Generally it's quality movies that get through but not all movies are on "equal footing" and not every deserving movie always makes it (or some years there are simply fewer great movies so some dogs get in).

IoW, to me it is a little disengenuous to market on the "x was nominated/won award A" when they marketed to get x the nomination in the first place.

 

[Crothian]

In effect, yes, because the pool the judges have to choose from is flawed.

They are flawed because they (the judges) can't help but be swayed by the marketing? I'm not sure marketing is quite that powerful. I think you give to much credit to the ability for people not to be able to think for themselves.

IoW, to me it is a little disengenuous to market on the "x was nominated/won award A" when they marketed to get x the nomination in the first place.

I don't get this at all. People should want to win and try to win awards. It shows they are doing something right. They have to look at their bottom line and if winning an award can help that then of course they should try to win that award. It works on both artistic side and economic side of business.

Also, in the case of the ENNies there is no marketing that I've seen to get nominating. Once they are nominated they do market that but not to get the nomination.

 

[Pramas]

To get back to the original question, there has been surprisingly little discussion of the ENnies on EN World.

 

[Herschel]

They are flawed because they (the judges) can't help but be swayed by the marketing? I'm not sure marketing is quite that powerful. I think you give to much credit to the ability for people not to be able to think for themselves..

A company submitting their product is marketing. You can argue whether targeting EnWorld is necessary in the market, but it most definitely is target marketing.

I don't get this at all. People should want to win and try to win awards. It shows they are doing something right. They have to look at their bottom line and if winning an award can help that then of course they should try to win that award. It works on both artistic side and economic side of business. .

It's showing they did something and were able to get positive attention for it. From a business standpoint that's good but "right" is pretty subjective. If an artist/designer makes an amazing product but editing whittles it to be very good or chops it up in a way that maximizes profit but detracts from the quality of the original work, is that "right"?

Also, in the case of the ENNies there is no marketing that I've seen to get nominating. Once they are nominated they do market that but not to get the nomination.

They submit products to be nominated. How active or passive they are in pushing their product to get nominated doesn't suddenly stop the point that it was marketing to be submitted in the first place. If a company in Tibet puts out the best product but doesn't know about/consider EnWorld important enough, it can't win the award because it didn't submit.

Not exactly the way I thought discussing the Ennies thread was going to go.

 

[Umbran]

A company submitting their product is marketing.

In theory, the company might have something to gain - though I think the impact of winning an Ennie is as yest unproven.

You can argue whether targeting EnWorld is necessary in the market, but it most definitely is target marketing.

Um... as I recall, most of this year's judges aren't EN World regulars. Targeting EN World wouldn't help much.

If a company in Tibet puts out the best product but doesn't know about/consider EnWorld important enough, it can't win the award because it didn't submit.

At this point, the issue isn't really EN World being important. It's whether GenCon is important, because the Ennies are GenCon's awards. If some company in Tibet that puts out RPG content doesn't know about or think GenCon is important to them, well, I suppose that could happen.

So, I take it then that if we could, somehow, create an elite team of well-funded folks to scour the world looking for products, acquire copies and ship them off to the judges, then it would be worth looking at?

There's a saying - "making perfect the enemy of good". You are engaged in that - throwing away all value the Ennies might get you, because the awards have what you consider to be a flaw.

As an end-consumer, what do you have to gain from the Ennies? A list of cool products. That's all. Not a definitive statement that the winner is, objectively, the coolest product of the year - since "cool product" is subjective, no method of selection would get you that. But, you get some sign that maybe other gamers like these things, such that they might be worth your perusal. Consider it peer review.

So, it remains - is the list of nominees a list of cool products? Does having a bunch of Pathfinder stuff in there mean the rest (the clear majority of the items on the list, even) aren't cool?

 

[Umbran]

To get back to the original question, there has been surprisingly little discussion of the ENnies on EN World.

Yep. Because while they started here, the Ennies aren't really EN World's any more. The judges aren't regulars here. Folks from all over the place vote on them. We're not invested in them as a community like we used to be, so you'd not expect them to be so much our focus any more.

 

[Herschel]

Does having a bunch of Pathfinder stuff in there mean the rest (the clear majority of the items on the list, even) aren't cool?[/qote]

No, in fact the Pathfinder items on the list that I am familiar with are also "cool" even if they aren't my game of choice. I just don't find reason to put much stock in the awards process as it is, just like some may not find much value in movie critics. Anyone else's mileage may vary.

PS: The "elite, superteam" would be great in my view, just not very practical so there isn't an awards process I'm greatly comfortable with.

 

[C.W.Richeson]

Does this tell us something?

I think it tells you that the ENnies encompass a broader interest in RPGs than is typically found at ENWorld. Personally, I think that's good for the ENnies and a positive statement about ENWorld. ENWorld has never striven to be a general RPG board, nor should it, but it's a credit to the site that it created something that has become the most well known RPG award program.

I am a little surprised at how little ENnies discussion seems to go on here. Circvs, RPG Haven, and Story-Games were the real hotbeds for discussion this year.

 

[Umbran]

I am a little surprised at how little ENnies discussion seems to go on here. Circvs, RPG Haven, and Story-Games were the real hotbeds for discussion this year.

Hey, C.W., a question for you: Do any of the judges regularly post at Circvs, RPG Haven, or Story-Games?

I ask because I wonder if perhaps the ENnies have missed some opportunities to keep people engaged. Not just here, but this place does make a good case study.

 

[Skeld]

Umbran -

Speaking solely for myself, I'm not a regular at any of those sites. however, there was some vigorous discussion on those sites and i tried to follow and participate in those threads. Whether my participation amounted to anything is another matter entirely.

-Mark