[ENnies] Categories

[Darrin Drader]

I heartily disagree with that statement

I'm not surprised, but here's a bunch of reasons why I'm right and you're wrong

First of all, the issue of being qualified - Judges are qualified to rate one product against another because they have been given and must read through all of the products that have been nominated. In order for anyone else to be qualified to determine which product is better than another, they too would also have to have all of the nominated products and take the time to read through them. If I were to group myself in with the general public, I would say that I am not qualified to vote because even with my 200 + Non-WotC D20 products, I don't have everything on the list from last year, and likely won't have everything from the list this year either. I have to wonder how many people here have the collection I do, let alone the collection they would need in order to make an informed vote. This brings up the oft-discussed issue of:

Market Penetration - Lets assume that Chris Pramas is correct about WotC's numbers (and I'm not confirming nor denying that he is because #1 I do not have the exact sales figures and #2 even if I did, I would not divulge them publicly. So for that reason, we'll go with what Chris said since he used to work at WotC and has a pretty good idea what he's talking about.) If WotC in fact sells 50,000 of every title, and most D20 publishers sell 1,000 to 5,000 of each title (and I do have it on good authority from non-WotC sources that this is an accurate figure), then 90% of the people who bought a WotC product in a particular category do not, in fact, own any given title in the same category, and there's a good chance they haven't even leafed through the product at a game store, let alone done an objective evaluation.

Market Subset - The "D20 Industry" is actually a subset of the entire RPG industry. What makes it a subset of the larger industry is the fact that 100% of any D20 publisher's customers are also WotC customers. In other words, this gets back to market share and the fact that any D20 publisher that isn't WotC doesn't stand a chance to compete against them if the winner is decided by a popular vote.

So, given the fact that it was a sweep last year because WotC was allowed to enter and they have the majority of the market share, if the same voting system is used again this year, again WotC will sweep the awards. You might as well not bother with the nominating and the voting and just announce all the WotC products as winners now!

Now, keep in mind that I am saying this not as someone that doesn't like WotC. In fact I love WotC. WotC is my employer, and I actually love my job. For that reason I consider myself to be one of the luckiest people in the world.

I'm also not speaking on behalf of WotC. It is entirely possible that they will decide to nominate some products this year - or not. I don't know. I haven't asked.

I'm in favor of allowing WotC to compete, but only if the playing field is level. Last year the playing field was not level, and the winning products came down to a popularity contest. The bottom line is that it should be rated strictly on the quality of the products, and that can only be determined by people that are qualified to judge them. Unless all things are equal, such as market share, brand recognition, etc. then the public shouldn't be part of the vote. If we have similar results this year, I predict that next year there will either be no nominations made from publishers who should be winning, there will be much less interest in the award, or people who actually care to see these based on quality rather than quantity like myself, will just not bother with the voting or any other aspect of the award.

 

[Pramas]

Re: You should watch where you spit

But personnaly, I would dislike a change based on input from anyone who speak as being more than a mere customer, most of the time, those changes won't make the ENnies better for me.

It wouldn't be better for you to know the top 3 products in each category? You'd rather only know which was best and that the rest were all losers? Guess I don't follow that logic.

 

[Mark CMG]

Re: Re: You should watch where you spit

It wouldn't be better for you to know the top 3 products in each category? You'd rather only know which was best and that the rest were all losers? Guess I don't follow that logic.

Under the current system we know the top five products, and which single one was the most popular. Under the change that Nicole proposes (and you seem to support), we'd know the top five products and which three were the most popular in descending order.

GR is in a unique position, IMO, to want such a change. They have some great products, no doubt about, in many of the categories, but seem feel that they can't yet topple WotC from the "most popular" spot. In that spectrum being chosen as "second (or third) most popular" might certainly seem appealing but I do not think that this is a good idea at the expense of numbers four and five which you both seem to discount as even existing.

Bottom line is that the nomination committee members are the only ones in the position to say what the five (or one, two, three or four) best products are and I think you should be less concerned about be the second (or third most popular) and pleased that there are five chances to be verified as best in the very large fields, even if where in that "best in field" isn't broken down by one through five.

Remember, you're not asking the change to be made so that people who have full knowledge of all products are choosing you as second (or third), you're simply proposing that you can have the second (or third) best market penetration.

 

[Frilf]

WARNING! The following post is satirical in nature. Juvenile discretion is advised...

I think someone should give Silverthorne an award for producing the 93rd most popular product on RPG Now. I mean, that's worth *something*, right? Guys?... ::echoes of own voice fading into obscurity::

Cheers!
Ian

 

[Pramas]

Re: Re: Re: You should watch where you spit

Under the current system we know the top five products, and which single one was the most popular. Under the change that Nicole proposes (and you seem to support), we'd know the top five products and which three were the most popular in descending order.

When I was thinking about Nicole's proposed changed, I was sort of assuming that there'd then be more nominees per category. I suppose I should have said that out loud though.

 

[Mark CMG]

Market Penetration - Lets assume that Chris Pramas is correct about WotC's numbers (and I'm not confirming nor denying that he is because #1 I do not have the exact sales figures and #2 even if I did, I would not divulge them publicly. So for that reason, we'll go with what Chris said since he used to work at WotC and has a pretty good idea what he's talking about.) If WotC in fact sells 50,000 of every title, and most D20 publishers sell 1,000 to 5,000 of each title (and I do have it on good authority from non-WotC sources that this is an accurate figure), then 90% of the people who bought a WotC product in a particular category do not, in fact, own any given title in the same category, and there's a good chance they haven't even leafed through the product at a game store, let alone done an objective evaluation.

Market Subset - The "D20 Industry" is actually a subset of the entire RPG industry. What makes it a subset of the larger industry is the fact that 100% of any D20 publisher's customers are also WotC customers. In other words, this gets back to market share and the fact that any D20 publisher that isn't WotC doesn't stand a chance to compete against them if the winner is decided by a popular vote.

So, given the fact that it was a sweep last year because WotC was allowed to enter and they have the majority of the market share, if the same voting system is used again this year, again WotC will sweep the awards. You might as well not bother with the nominating and the voting and just announce all the WotC products as winners now!

Now, keep in mind that I am saying this not as someone that doesn't like WotC. In fact I love WotC. WotC is my employer, and I actually love my job. For that reason I consider myself to be one of the luckiest people in the world.

I'm also not speaking on behalf of WotC. It is entirely possible that they will decide to nominate some products this year - or not. I don't know. I haven't asked.

I'm in favor of allowing WotC to compete, but only if the playing field is level. Last year the playing field was not level, and the winning products came down to a popularity contest. The bottom line is that it should be rated strictly on the quality of the products, and that can only be determined by people that are qualified to judge them. Unless all things are equal, such as market share, brand recognition, etc. then the public shouldn't be part of the vote. If we have similar results this year, I predict that next year there will either be no nominations made from publishers who should be winning, there will be much less interest in the award, or people who actually care to see these based on quality rather than quantity like myself, will just not bother with the voting or any other aspect of the award.

The field is actually leveled a good deal by internet access and willingness to be a participant in EN World's voting process. Let's not forget that as each year goes by, WotC is laying off an increasing number of their potential votes. Being in print publishing isn't even a lock on market penetration since the vast majority of people who purchase print products do so at a brick and mortar store and likely have either no knowledge of EN World and the ENnies, or even don't have internet access.

The publishers who have the best chance to organize the majority of their actual customers are online PDF publishers, ironically. As PDFs gain further acceptance, the playing field is increasingly leveled. It's even possible for someone in the middle of looking over the nominees to click a few times and pick up a products from a PDF publisher and become familiar with that nominee in very short order.

As each year goes by I, as a PDF publisher, become less and less concerned about WotC's total market penetration, or even that of any given print publisher. My main concern is about producing material of high enough quality that any objection to the medium in which that material is presented (as PDFs) in the eyes of the nomination committee members is no longer an issue. The difficulty for a PDF pub isn't turning out the vote, it's being accepted in the industry.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I think a judges' choice award is a good idea -- as long as it's just *one* award. I don't want a winner and a judge choice for every category... that cheapens both.

I don't think that the particular license used should decide the category; a category for non-D&D-compatible products would be good if you could think of a name for it. (Last year the "d20 Games" categorie filled this role.)

A publisher choice award would be great, but probably shouldn't be called an ENnie, even if EN World runs it.

I was overjoyed to be nominated for two awards, and received honourable mention for a third.

OVER JOYED.

Darn near blown away.

We were blown away last year by Gar'Udok -- we said "Why isn't this a print product? More people should have access to it!"

You were nominated in one of the hardest categories. In fact, this category was the hardest to judge; I reread* about half a dozen products just to be sure I gave everything a fair look.

* When you get all the books for the ENnies 1-2 weeks before the deadline, you don't read anything twice. You just don't -- there isn't the time. I had to, though, for this category...

 

[Mark CMG]

Re: Re: Re: Re: You should watch where you spit

When I was thinking about Nicole's proposed changed, I was sort of assuming that there'd then be more nominees per category. I suppose I should have said that out loud though.

Well it's said now, and I did suspect it in any event having met you and knowing you are a fair minding person.

I think though, that what you are proposing takes more focus away from what are the best products and places more importance on what is popular (which I think is the opposite effect you intend).

In the end everyone knows that the final winner is simply the one that gets the most votes from people who have no chance to review every single product submitted. The glory in the ENnies truly is in being nominated, and lessening that by adding second and third place most popular awards isn't really what you want, is it? (and this question is to both Chris and Nicole)

 

[CRGreathouse]

My main concern is about producing material of high enough quality that any objection to the medium in which that material is presented (as PDFs) in the eyes of the nomination committee members is no longer an issue. The difficulty for a PDF pub isn't turning out the vote, it's being accepted in the industry.

Let me assure you, the ENnie judges don't discount PDF publishers in any way. We had serious discussion about all the products, and even nominated 3 PDF products in 4 categories -- not counting free products. There were several honerable mentions, too: Terrors of the Twisted Earth and CBG's Beyond Monks come to mind.

 

[Mark CMG]

Let me assure you, the ENnie judges don't discount PDF publishers in any way. We had serious discussion about all the products, and even nominated 3 PDF products in 4 categories -- not counting free products. There were several honerable mentions, too: Terrors of the Twisted Earth and CBG's Beyond Monks come to mind.

I didn't find that to be a problem in the first year, either (though, admittedly, there were fewer PDFs in contention). The only reason it would concern me at all since then would be if there were any members on the committee who have a bias against PDFs in general. I'd have to review posts by the members of the committee to determine if there were any bias in that regard and I see no useful end to dragging quotes from committee members to the fore. I can only say that I have hopes that the integrity of all committee members can judge materials on their content and, as you have said, "don't discount PDFs in any way." I'm heartened by your post and feel secure in dropping this as an issue if you say it is the case.