[ENnies] Categories

[Nikchick]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You should watch where you spit

In the end everyone knows that the final winner is simply the one that gets the most votes from people who have no chance to review every single product submitted. The glory in the ENnies truly is in being nominated, and lessening that by adding second and third place most popular awards isn't really what you want, is it? (and this question is to both Chris and Nicole)

This is *exactly* the problem that the Origins Awards have already, and I see the ENnies walking into the same trap. Right now there is virtually no difference between the Origins Awards (where the Academy members vote for the top 5 products in each category, and then the nomination ballot is voted on by the public) and the ENnies (where a panel of judges pulled by popular vote from the EN World body choose the top 5 products in each category and then the nomination ballot is voted on by the "public").

The Origins Awards are often denigrated for being nothing more than a popularity contest once the final voting begins, using almost exactly the same argument as we've seen here regarding the ENnies. And the Origins Awards nominees have also often said that the honor is in being nominated, since they're nominated by Academy members who are their professional peers and presumably more familiar with the products on the ballot.

In the case of the ENnies, being nominated to the final ballot is an honor, of course, but it's also subject to the judgement of the panel. Not to say ENnie judges don't do a good job or anything like that, but they're being almost randomly selected (other than being a participant on the boards, there are no stringent guidelines or eligibility requirements to become an ENnie judge. Who *can* become an ENnie judge is better defined by the rules about who *can't* become an ENnie judge. I think you may be over-estimating the "glory" associated with the nomination, especially as the years go on.

It seems to me that Morrus, in his association with GenCon and his efforts to conduct the awards with more ceremony and physical trophies, etc, is interested in running the EN World awards as a meaningful and on-going set of awards. If I'm mistaken, and the ENnies are to remain a smallish, informal set of awards, then my suggested changes are probably unnecessary. In fact, it's probably unnecessary to have the judging panel at all... just open the vote up to the community at large right off the bat. But if my preception that the awards are intended to grow in significance (and, to a certain extent, formality) then I truly think increasing the scope of the awards to a medal system is the way to go.

Nicole

 

[Darrin Drader]

The field is actually leveled a good deal by internet access and willingness to be a participant in EN World's voting process. Let's not forget that as each year goes by, WotC is laying off an increasing number of their potential votes. Being in print publishing isn't even a lock on market penetration since the vast majority of people who purchase print products do so at a brick and mortar store and likely have either no knowledge of EN World and the ENnies, or even don't have internet access.

Mark, I appreciate your optimism, and I know you to be a logical and well-meaning person, but on this matter I simply have to disagree with you. Most of the people that are regulars to these boards are well informed and agree or disagree with them, at least the majority of the people here take the time to put real thought behind their statements (this is one of the reasons that I find this corner of cyberspace a refreshing outlet for social interraction - albeit limited interraction). Unfortunately Morrus has shown us the stats proving that a large number of people who visit ENWorld don't participate in the boards at any level. They show up, they read the news, they vote occasionally. I was one of these people for a long time back when these were Eric's boards. Maybe these people have seen the headlines about the various products, but do they actually know all the products? In most cases, I would argue no. A positive frame of mind also doesn't address the issue of whether someone who isn't in possession of all the products is qualified to vote.

Anyway, with only a few exceptions (Malhavoc Press, I would assume, being one of them), PDF sales are way below what you can expect for a printed product. I really believe that there are 2 major gulfs in the industry. The first gulf is between WotC and everyone else that puts a D20 logo on their product. The second is between anyone who puts a D20 logo on their product and a PDF with a D20 logo on it. I think that hard-working companies can only be properly recognized for their acheivements if the playing field is level, and I have to disagree with you on the notion that it is with the way the awards are currently structured.

 

[Mark CMG]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You should watch where you spit

This is *exactly* the problem that the Origins Awards have already, and I see the ENnies walking into the same trap. Right now there is virtually no difference between the Origins Awards (where the Academy members vote for the top 5 products in each category, and then the nomination ballot is voted on by the public) and the ENnies (where a panel of judges pulled by popular vote from the EN World body choose the top 5 products in each category and then the nomination ballot is voted on by the "public").

The Origins Awards are often denigrated for being nothing more than a popularity contest once the final voting begins, using almost exactly the same argument as we've seen here regarding the ENnies. And the Origins Awards nominees have also often said that the honor is in being nominated, since they're nominated by Academy members who are their professional peers and presumably more familiar with the products on the ballot.

In the case of the ENnies, being nominated to the final ballot is an honor, of course, but it's also subject to the judgement of the panel. Not to say ENnie judges don't do a good job or anything like that, but they're being almost randomly selected (other than being a participant on the boards, there are no stringent guidelines or eligibility requirements to become an ENnie judge. Who *can* become an ENnie judge is better defined by the rules about who *can't* become an ENnie judge. I think you may be over-estimating the "glory" associated with the nomination, especially as the years go on.

It seems to me that Morrus, in his association with GenCon and his efforts to conduct the awards with more ceremony and physical trophies, etc, is interested in running the EN World awards as a meaningful and on-going set of awards. If I'm mistaken, and the ENnies are to remain a smallish, informal set of awards, then my suggested changes are probably unnecessary. In fact, it's probably unnecessary to have the judging panel at all... just open the vote up to the community at large right off the bat. But if my preception that the awards are intended to grow in significance (and, to a certain extent, formality) then I truly think increasing the scope of the awards to a medal system is the way to go.

Nicole

I see exactly what you are saying but think that your solution goes in the opposite direction you wish to travel. Increasing the number of popular winners doesn't do anything to change what is the case toward what you desire. The only suggestion I have in regard to moving in your direction is to foster further criteria for membership committee members. It may be that next year the whole criteria and process needs to be revamped to include a more stringent application to nom com members, requirements beyond membership in the community and popularity among same. Currently beyond that there is only the need for disclosure of any afiliation and exclusion based on that. What further criteria would you propose? Under the current system it is the current committee members who will hash out those ideas and make their proposals to Russell for implementation next year if need be, IIANM.

 

[Mark CMG]

Mark, I appreciate your optimism, and I know you to be a logical and well-meaning person, but on this matter I simply have to disagree with you. Most of the people that are regulars to these boards are well informed and agree or disagree with them, at least the majority of the people here take the time to put real thought behind their statements (this is one of the reasons that I find this corner of cyberspace a refreshing outlet for social interraction - albeit limited interraction). Unfortunately Morrus has shown us the stats proving that a large number of people who visit ENWorld don't participate in the boards at any level. They show up, they read the news, they vote occasionally. I was one of these people for a long time back when these were Eric's boards. Maybe these people have seen the headlines about the various products, but do they actually know all the products? In most cases, I would argue no. A positive frame of mind also doesn't address the issue of whether someone who isn't in possession of all the products is qualified to vote.

Anyway, with only a few exceptions (Malhavoc Press, I would assume, being one of them), PDF sales are way below what you can expect for a printed product. I really believe that there are 2 major gulfs in the industry. The first gulf is between WotC and everyone else that puts a D20 logo on their product. The second is between anyone who puts a D20 logo on their product and a PDF with a D20 logo on it. I think that hard-working companies can only be properly recognized for their acheivements if the playing field is level, and I have to disagree with you on the notion that it is with the way the awards are currently structured.

The only way to fairly assess whether my assumptions are correct, or yours are more close to the mark, would be to compare the final votes in the actual process to the number of sales for the products that garner those votes. Until that can be done, we are both merely feeling our way through the dark. There are only a few people with that knowledge and, at the end of the day, all we can do is put forth our ideals and hope that the people with the hard numbers keep our suggestions in mind when forming policy.

*edit for spelling*

 

[Darrin Drader]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You should watch where you spit

The Origins Awards are often denigrated for being nothing more than a popularity contest once the final voting begins, using almost exactly the same argument as we've seen here regarding the ENnies. And the Origins Awards nominees have also often said that the honor is in being nominated, since they're nominated by Academy members who are their professional peers and presumably more familiar with the products on the ballot.

Nicole, I wholeheartedly agree with you that something should be done differently. The only additional thing I would point out is that at least the Origins Award is handed out to RPG's across the spectrum whereas the ENnies are specific to D20. With the Origins, it is to be expected that companies like Games Workshop and others stand a chance of winning awards. In this case, as we've already seen, the winners will be pretty much limited to WotC, should WotC products be entered.

 

[Teflon Billy]

...I don't like a Judges' Choice award. The nominations themselves are the Judges' Choice awards, right?...

Hmm. Actually that's a really good point Wulf.

 

[Teflon Billy]

...I can only say that I have hopes that the integrity of all committee members can judge materials on their content and, as you have said, "don't discount PDFs in any way." I'm heartened by your post and feel secure in dropping this as an issue if you say it is the case.

I'll say it: I have nothing against PDF's

I'll also add that I was blown away by Garu'Dok's last year. I was pretty lukewarm when I first opened it up ("Oh Great; Necromancers again"), but by God it won me over and fast.

 

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You should watch where you spit

....Not to say ENnie judges don't do a good job or anything like that, but they're being almost randomly selected (other than being a participant on the boards, there are no stringent guidelines or eligibility requirements to become an ENnie judge. Who *can* become an ENnie judge is better defined by the rules about who *can't* become an ENnie judge. I think you may be over-estimating the "glory" associated with the nomination, especially as the years go on...

Hey now! I think we can all agree that I pretty much rule!

Right? Right guys?

*crickets chirp*

 

[MEG Hal]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You should watch where you spit

Hey now! I think we can all agree that I pretty much rule!

Right? Right guys?

*crickets chirp*

*stomps on crickets*
complete silence ensues

 

[Darrin Drader]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You should watch where you spit

*stomps on crickets*
complete silence ensues

*Looses a bag of holding full of bloodthirsty, man-eating dire crows, whose flesh-eating tendencies can only be overcome by eating crickets.*

Screaming ensues