Ennies Ceremony: How should nominees dress?
G'day
By the way, the way I was taught, on an invitation "formal" means either a morning suit (striped trousers, tail coat, striped cravat and top hat) or evening dress (white tie and tails), "semi-formal" means dinner jacket (tuxedo), "informal' means a business suit, and "casual" means a sports coat and tie.
That is what everyone understands when they are voting, right?
I ask because a few months ago I was invited to a 3 PM wedding, and the invitation said 'dress: semi-formal'. I thought it was odd to wear a dinner jacket in the middle of the afternoon, but I complied. And it turned out that what they meant was that they didn't want anyone to come in jeans.
Oh well. Lovely bride, though.
Regards,
Agback
By the way, the way I was taught, on an invitation "formal" means either a morning suit (striped trousers, tail coat, striped cravat and top hat) or evening dress (white tie and tails), "semi-formal" means dinner jacket (tuxedo), "informal' means a business suit, and "casual" means a sports coat and tie.
That is what everyone understands when they are voting, right?
I ask because a few months ago I was invited to a 3 PM wedding, and the invitation said 'dress: semi-formal'. I thought it was odd to wear a dinner jacket in the middle of the afternoon, but I complied. And it turned out that what they meant was that they didn't want anyone to come in jeans.
Oh well. Lovely bride, though.
Regards,
Agback
jgbrowning
Hero
EDIT: Cut out non-positive stuff. I'd rather talk with you guys in person at Gen Con than try to do so over a board. See ya there....
I'd much rather have Morrus decide that we should all show up wearing a new ENworld t-shirt. I'd gladly prefer that, because it would actually, fiscally, support the site, conform our appearance (the reason why dress-up seems to show respect isn't because of the actual dress which varies from locale to locale, situation to situation, and time period to time period, but because of the individual's willingness to conform to the group's wishes over the individual's wishes in a codified social interaction. this conformity is usually expressed in a mannor that requires excess effort or display wealth on the part of the individual) and act as advertising to get more everyday gamers interested in ENworld and the ENnies.
Obviously, if the game writers are willing to wear a single t-shirt for this web site it must be important.
joe "I'll wear what's decided upon" b.
I'd much rather have Morrus decide that we should all show up wearing a new ENworld t-shirt. I'd gladly prefer that, because it would actually, fiscally, support the site, conform our appearance (the reason why dress-up seems to show respect isn't because of the actual dress which varies from locale to locale, situation to situation, and time period to time period, but because of the individual's willingness to conform to the group's wishes over the individual's wishes in a codified social interaction. this conformity is usually expressed in a mannor that requires excess effort or display wealth on the part of the individual) and act as advertising to get more everyday gamers interested in ENworld and the ENnies.
Obviously, if the game writers are willing to wear a single t-shirt for this web site it must be important.
joe "I'll wear what's decided upon" b.
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Teflon Billy
Explorer
Seriosuly, when I finished my last post with "Dress as you will" I meant it.
But please, don't bother with rationalizations like "the way I present myself is no reflection on the way I feel". The image one projects is the message one sends non-verbally.
This is what is being referred to when someone gives a "show of respect".
People don't have to guess as to whether you hold the event in some esteem...you have dressed up for it.
If some hobo wandered into the event, I would assume that he had no respect for it based on how he was dressed.
If some lost businessman in a two piece suit wandered into the event, I would assume he had some respect for it, likewise based on his manner of dress.
"But aha!" you say "Billy, neither of them have any respect for the event!" And you would be correct.
But one of them looks like he does and one doesn't.
I think if you have respect for the some event you might want to take a crack at looing like you do. Otherwise, there is no way to tell (Short of bringing a bullhorn...but that could disrupt things)
But please, don't bother with rationalizations like "the way I present myself is no reflection on the way I feel". The image one projects is the message one sends non-verbally.
This is what is being referred to when someone gives a "show of respect".
People don't have to guess as to whether you hold the event in some esteem...you have dressed up for it.
If some hobo wandered into the event, I would assume that he had no respect for it based on how he was dressed.
If some lost businessman in a two piece suit wandered into the event, I would assume he had some respect for it, likewise based on his manner of dress.
"But aha!" you say "Billy, neither of them have any respect for the event!" And you would be correct.
But one of them looks like he does and one doesn't.
I think if you have respect for the some event you might want to take a crack at looing like you do. Otherwise, there is no way to tell (Short of bringing a bullhorn...but that could disrupt things)
jgbrowning
Hero
Teflon Billy said:
cool. i wasn't sure it it was sarcastic or not.. which is why i deleted some stuff in my above post, because i realized it was too open for interpretation.
But what you're really saying is that I should look the way you think I should, which is the gist of my argument. In my long experience with wearing suits for work, suits don't mean anything more than a certain social-standing. For most of the people I worked with, suits were casual, and they became so with me by the end of my stint in the industry because I spent much more time in suits than in any other form of clothing. Tuxes showed respect.
But as before, I'll wear whatever people want me to wear, but I'd rather talk all about this with you in person.
joe b.
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PowerWordDumb
First Post
Not dressed up != Look like a pig
Hurrah! I can't possibly agree more. "Dressing up" historically was about dressing in such a way as to ape the conventions of a higher strata of society, wearing clothes one could not possibly wear on a day-to-day basis in an effort to appear "better" than one really was (from a social perspective). Given that context, it was a lie then and it's still a lie now. If I liked wearing them it'd be a different story, but as it stands if I were to wear such an outfit for any reason other than my own personal desire to do so, it by definition is pretentious - I'm pretending to be something I'm not.
If I like the way I *look* dressed up, that's a different thing, but the idea that I *should* dress up to show respect, or to fulfill someone else's expectations of my behavior is patently offensive. I can dress very nicely indeed without resorting to a suit or toxedo. For me, that is the far preferable method of dressing up - wearing good, clean, presentable clothes (*NOT* baggy shorts, torn t-shirts, sweatpants, or the like, but that's a personal decision) that, while I may not work in the garden in them, I still feel comfortable and natural wearing. I feel neither comfortable or natural while wearing a suit jacket or worse yet a monkey-suit tuxedo. Your mileage may vary, of course, and more power to you if it does.
My views (my own only, not necessarily yours) are:
* Liking to "dress up" or see other people "dressed up" = okay! You're welcome to your opinion.
* Wanting everyone to "dress up" or else you deem them to be disrespecting you or not worth your time & attention = NOT okay!
* Thinking people are wrong to not want to "dress up" for special occasions = NOT okay!
jgbrowning said:
Hurrah! I can't possibly agree more. "Dressing up" historically was about dressing in such a way as to ape the conventions of a higher strata of society, wearing clothes one could not possibly wear on a day-to-day basis in an effort to appear "better" than one really was (from a social perspective). Given that context, it was a lie then and it's still a lie now. If I liked wearing them it'd be a different story, but as it stands if I were to wear such an outfit for any reason other than my own personal desire to do so, it by definition is pretentious - I'm pretending to be something I'm not.
If I like the way I *look* dressed up, that's a different thing, but the idea that I *should* dress up to show respect, or to fulfill someone else's expectations of my behavior is patently offensive. I can dress very nicely indeed without resorting to a suit or toxedo. For me, that is the far preferable method of dressing up - wearing good, clean, presentable clothes (*NOT* baggy shorts, torn t-shirts, sweatpants, or the like, but that's a personal decision) that, while I may not work in the garden in them, I still feel comfortable and natural wearing. I feel neither comfortable or natural while wearing a suit jacket or worse yet a monkey-suit tuxedo. Your mileage may vary, of course, and more power to you if it does.
My views (my own only, not necessarily yours) are:
* Liking to "dress up" or see other people "dressed up" = okay! You're welcome to your opinion.
* Wanting everyone to "dress up" or else you deem them to be disrespecting you or not worth your time & attention = NOT okay!
* Thinking people are wrong to not want to "dress up" for special occasions = NOT okay!
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jgbrowning
Hero
Repectfully, PowerWordDumb, would you mind editing out my quote you quoted?
I'm trying to let this issue go and pick it up in person with TB and CH. That way there's much less of a chance for miscommunication and insult.
joe b.
I'm trying to let this issue go and pick it up in person with TB and CH. That way there's much less of a chance for miscommunication and insult.
joe b.
PowerWordDumb
First Post
Teflon Billy said:
That's cool. It's this very "I may prefer that you do X, but be yourself, man" kind of atmosphere that makes the EN community great.
Teflon Billy said:
In my case it's not a rationalization at all. I honestly do not value people more if they wear a suit or tuxedo. In fact, I mark them down a few points because I automatically assume they're trying to cover up for something or otherwise hide some deficiency in personality by drawing attention away from themselves and toward their clothing. My view is no more right than yours, but it should illustrate that the world is not of one mind on the issue. In such a case I personally feel it would be hypocritical of me to simply defer to the popular view when I feel my own is just as valid. To me, the "show of respect" is about how you treat the event by your behaviour, not by your clothing.
Teflon Billy said:
Again, I don't judge how people are treating an even based on their clothing, I judge it based on their demeanor and their behavior. Sitting in the back of the room giggling while sneaking sips off of a mickey shows a definite lack of respect, for instance, even if you're dressed in a tux with long tails. Sitting quietly and really listening to people's speeches on the other hand shows respect even if you show up naked.
Teflon Billy said:
Chalk one up to personal preference, I suppose. I'd figure neither one cared based on the likely behaviours I'd see from each of them. The hobo would be panhandling or looking for cigarette butts, and the business geek would be staring around slack-jawed wondering where the free snacks and conference tchotchkies are.
Teflon Billy said:
I agree with you here - I would personally dress at least in clean presentable clothing, and would myself lean towards something in the "business casual" range, but that's just personal preference, and I wouldn't judge people for choosing differently.
Anyway, nice talking this through. After months of misunderstandings, tears and fits from the women about the issue of my wedding attire it's nice to be able to have a rational discussion on the matter. Again for the record, for that occasion I'm ending up in a linen mandarin-collar shirt and a brocade high-collar vest and dress pants. It is dressy without being *dressed up*, and both I and the women are very happy with it - it just took a few months to convince them of that fact.
PowerWordDumb
First Post
jgbrowning said:
Done! There's no need for anyone to get offended by this discussion, and I'm happy to keep it that way.
Cheers!
