5E Enough is Enough: WotC needs to add "domain spells" to *existing* sorcerer subclasses

Sword of Spirit

Adventurer
The new UA is trying out the "domain" spells (2 specific free spells known of each level from 1st - 5th) for a sorcerer subclass. That's 10 more spells known to a class that many feel is sorely lacking in known spells.

My reaction to it is:

Yes! ...as long as you give it to the existing subclasses, such as the draconic and wild mage in the PHB, and all of the options in Xanathars. To just give it to a new sorcerer subclass, but not the existing ones, is to essentially admit that it is needed but to try to hold onto the principle of not changing existing classes at the expense of consistency and functionality.

A few months ago there was a UA with variant class features, some of which are pure extras. If they are going to do something like this, then they need to make a variant bonus feature for all sorcerers that gives them appropriate domain spells. The biggest word count will just be taken up by the need for there to be at least 5 lists for draconic bloodlines.

It just needs to be done. I get the desire to stick with the rules that have been out for years, but there needs to be an exception here.
 

FlyingChihuahua

Adventurer
Yeah, sorcerers need some bonus spells, if only to help push their flavor.

It might get tricky with the Dragonic Bloodline sorcerers, but as professional game designers, I think they could figure it out.
 

Prakriti

Hi, I'm a Mindflayer, but don't let that worry you
The new UA is trying out the "domain" spells (2 specific free spells known of each level from 1st - 5th) for a sorcerer subclass.
The UA version of the Storm Sorcerer had bonus spells as well. Those spells were removed from the published version.

Also, the argument against giving Sorcerers extra spells is that they eventually end up with more prepared spells than a Wizard of the same level, which definitely steps on the Wizard's toes. I can understand giving Sorcerers 1 spell per spell level, but 2 is too many.
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
If they are going to do something like this, then they need to make a variant bonus feature for all sorcerers that gives them appropriate domain spells
I totally agree. If they're going to offer things to other PHB classes, there is no reason why they couldnt' do it for the PHB sorcerers and Origin spells.
Yeah, sorcerers need some bonus spells, if only to help push their flavor.
Agree, even if it were only 1 per spell level and not 2 like we've seen the last couple of subclasses.
lv 1 chomatic orc
lv 2 dragon's breath
lv 3 elemental weapon or fly
lv 4 elemental bane
lv 5 dominate person
This is a great list. I fully agree on the first three. I think 4th and 5th maybe you tune it to each dragon/element type.

So a gold/red dragon origin at 4th could get Fire Shield. Cold version for the whites/silvers. While the Green could get something like hallucinatory terrain.
 

Phazonfish

Explorer
Also, the argument against giving Sorcerers extra spells is that they eventually end up with more prepared spells than a Wizard of the same level, which definitely steps on the Wizard's toes.
Does it though? Wizards can prepare their choice of spells from a great list every day and can ritual cast spells they don't even have prepared. The Sorcerers pick spells from an okay-ish list (unless Divine Soul) and get to change their spells out 1-at-a-time only upon level up. Wizards are SO much more versatile that I believe they would have the edge in this manner even if the Sorc got domain spells. Spontaneous Casting instead of Preparation Casting should feel like a tradeoff, not a burden.
 

CrashFiend82

Explorer
I was just thinking this same, and intended to make a post. Specifically I have a player in an upcoming campaign that will likely play a wild magic sorcerer. We made a few modifications to give the player control over the abilities. I also was thinking of adding "domain" spells or something similar. So time for opinions, why would you limit it to 1 spell and not 2 like the UA? It is still far fewer known than a wizard, also any suggestions for spells, for each "domain", primarily interested in wild magic?
 
sorcerers do not need more spells known, they need more spell slots.

Having sorcery points on short rest would give real difference between sorcerers and wizards.

more raw power vs more utility.
problem here is that they painted themselves into a corner with SP. the way it interacts with paladin and/or warlock is already probably too strong and adding SP recharge on S rest will do little to fix the issues that sorcerers have.
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
Also, the argument against giving Sorcerers extra spells is that they eventually end up with more prepared spells than a Wizard of the same level, which definitely steps on the Wizard's toes. I can understand giving Sorcerers 1 spell per spell level, but 2 is too many.
Wizards prepare Level + Int spells per day, so let's compare using Starting Int of 16 via standard array and assuming maxing it out as quickly as possible at 4th & 8th, only getting the free spells at level up in their book & sorcerer getting 1 or 2 bonus spells knowns
  • 1st level
    • Wizard = 4 spells prepared out of 6 in their spellbook
    • Sorcerer
      • 1 bonus/spell level = 2+1= 3 known 1st level spells
      • 2 bonus/spell level = 2+2= 4 known 1st level spells
  • 3rd level
    • Wizard = 6 prepared spells out of 10 in their spellbook
    • Sorcerer
      • 1 bonus/spell level = 4+2 = 6 known spells
      • 2 bonus/spell level = 4+4 = 8 known spells
  • 4th level
    • Wizard = 8 prepared spells out of 12 in their spellbook
    • Sorcerer = 7 or 9 known spells
  • 8th level
    • Wizard = 13 prepared spells out of 20 spells in their spellbook
    • Sorcerer = 13 or 17 known spells
  • 12th level (at this point sorcerers only get +1 every 2 levels)
    • Wizard = 17 prepared spells out of 28 spells in their spellbook
    • Sorcerer = 17 or 22 known spells
  • 17th level (at this point a sorcerer get no more known spells)
    • Wizard = 22 prepared spells out of 38 spells in their spellbook
    • Sorcerer = 20 or 25 known spells
  • 20th level
    • Wizard = 27 (25+Singature spell) prepared spells out of 44 spells in their spellbook
      • Wizard at this point also has 1x 1st level spell and 1x 2nd level spell they can cast unlimited per day and 2x 3rd level spells that are always prepared and can cast 1/long rest without a slot
    • Sorcerer = 20 or 25 known spells.
So that reinforces my thought that 1 spell per level is fair. It helps reinforce the origin theme, and at WORST it gives the sorcerer as many options in spell variety per day as the wizard.

Don't forget that Wizards still get all those lovely rituals in their spellbooks. Sorcerers don't get any ritual casting without spending a feat or multiclassing.
 

CrashFiend82

Explorer
That makes sense, thanks for the math. I think I am more than okay with 2 "bonus" spells personally. At times the sorcerer may have more known than the wizard can prepare, however the wizard has a far greater list that can be changed on a Long Rest. Along with rituals the wizard wins in versatility, mainly due to the odds of "learning" more spells from scrolls and spellbooks. I realize that is an opinion and some might want the wizard's niche to be having more spells prepared each day.
 
Spontaneous Casting instead of Preparation Casting should feel like a tradeoff, not a burden.
In 5e, all casting is spontaneous casting. The distinction is really Known vs Prepped. Known is a limitation on the character's versatility, prepped is a bookkeeping burden on the player.

I suppose that's a trade-off, in a sense.
 

prabe

Aspiring Lurker (He/Him)
I can see giving sorcerers a few more spells (at my table, that'd be three, spread out over the first few levels), but they're not supposed to have lots of spells. They're supposed to be idiots savant with some sort of overpowered direct link to The Weave (or whatever Metaphor your campaign world uses). Their focus is output, not flexibility.
 

cbwjm

I can add a custom title.
I don't like set domain spells for sorcerers because I see them as learning their magic haphazardly, unlike a wizard who studies magic, so I'd rather not have all sorcerers of the same type gain the same spells. What I would like to see instead is bonus spells known slots and an expanded spell list to choose these bonus spells from. This means that you might find two storm sorcerers one has call lightning as their bonus 3rd level spell while the other has lightning bolt.
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
I don't like set domain spells for sorcerers because I see them as learning their magic haphazardly, unlike a wizard who studies magic, so I'd rather not have all sorcerers of the same type gain the same spells. What I would like to see instead is bonus spells known slots and an expanded spell list to choose these bonus spells from. This means that you might find two storm sorcerers one has call lightning as their bonus 3rd level spell while the other has lightning bolt.
I should clarify my earlier statement.

At my table, I have 2 spells per spell level 1st-5th that are bonus spells, but each sorcerer gets to pick one at each level. At level up, these are open to swap between the two as your level that you can change, but only between the two.

I feel like having some theme spells automatically available helps reinforce the theme without forcing the sorcerer to NOT have key spells associated with their theme.
 

ninjayeti

Explorer
I'd like to see sorcerers get "domain" spells BUT I'd also like to see those spells go toward more situational and utility spells. Currently the limited spell selection means sorcerers end up going with the "usual suspects" of combat spells. You just don't have the slots to spare for those spells that might be cool or fit the lore but you might only going to use a couple of times over the campaign.

So by all means give them some interesting spells that support the concept, e.g., Storm sorcerers get fog cloud, gust of wind and sleet storm. It is going to make them cooler and more fun to play without really creating balance issues.
 

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