Entangle

[Saeviomagy]

Yes. Entangle is ridiculous for a 1st-level spell. After a party wipe at 5th level because of this one little spell, I house-ruled it to a 20-foot radius, with a Strength escape DC of 15, not 20. When my 6th-level druid used entangle in a previous campaign to hamper a trio of hill giants, it effectively took one of them out of the fight for two rounds, and another out of the fight for the entire encounter. No other 1st-level spell could do this.

I don't see HOW it did the above. Hill giants still have that nasty "chuck ranged weapons" maneuver left to them... Or were the entire party out of line of sight for the whole thing or something?

Same for the 5th level party wipeout... were they just totally unequipped for ranged combat or something? In which case any flying monster would have served them up the same meal of TPK goodness...

 

[sullivan]

Don't forget that the PCs wanted to talk to the elves, not fight, they have seen the elfs, but their "surprise round" action was to say "Hello, we want to ....". Then at the druid turn, she cast entangle. But yeah, I didn't make an initiative to know exactly when they talk.

RAW says there is no Surprise when the combatants are aware of each other at the start of combat. The only wildcard in this situation are the invisible PCs, and they could only give the Druid a surprise action if he did know they were present and the non-invisible PCs didn't know. Having tracked them into the general them doesn't nessasary allow that, certainly it would not let him know it any more than the non-invisible PCs.

Even then the invisible PCs should have gotten in on the surprise round, and the rest of the Druids party not unless there was some sort of specific preplanned thing that as a DM you make a judgement call on.

 

[sullivan]

And the house rule that the initiator of a hostile action gets a surprise round - no, not unless he's somehow concealing his hostile act. I suppose that in the above case, if the elf had cast a silent, stilled spell and use sleight of hand to conceal the fact he was holding his holy symbol, and the party failed their spot checks, I'd have given him a surprise round, but not otherwise.

Well a house rule varies from, you guessed it, house to house. But I personally would allow Bluff vs. Spot/Listen opposed checks (similar to Fient) or Sleight of Hand vs. for palmed weapons. I've found this relatively common tact, but we are getting a bit off track here.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Don't forget that the PCs wanted to talk to the elves, not fight, they have seen the elfs, but their "surprise round" action was to say "Hello, we want to ....". Then at the druid turn, she cast entangle. But yeah, I didn't make an initiative to know exactly when they talk.

It is a minor point in this scenario, but I advise strongly against this line of thinking. You can easily get PC deaths or a TPK based on a DM's guess that "your PC does not expect this, therefore you are Surprised". Do not go there.

Surprise only occurs when someone is attacked by an enemy they are completely unaware of. If they were aware of the approach of the Elves they cannot be surprised by any member of that party (unless someone uses Invisibility or Hide to sneak forward, etc.)

Logically, the party had the right to ask for Readied Actions once they were aware of the other party. Paranoid players in my gaming group will always ask for Readied Actions against spellcasting.

As you your particular concern about Entangle, my Druid PC has used the spell a few times and it seems to do squat for me. It is very random.

The PCs should have laid down an Obscuring Mist or two to buy time for the party to regroup. 3 of 6 party members Entangled should not be a big deal. No time like the present to teach these would be heroes a few harsh tactical lessons. If they cannot adjust to a few party members in an Entangle, they are going to have real trouble when they are hit by a well-placed Web, Spiked Growth, Stinking Cloud, or Wall of Fire.

Overall I think you played this out well. I would be much more careful about allowing a Surprise round, even for just one NPC.

 

[RigaMortus]

There is no need for a Spot check. I assume the party saw the Druid (and his companions) and vice versa? So no need for a Spot check. The way it should have played out was:

As soon as the Druid starts to cast, roll for init (before the spell even goes off). The whole purpose of init is to catch people off guard (flat-footed). You just declared that the Druid automatically caught the party off guard, and that is incorrect. Whose to say that someone in the party would not be able to react before the Druid finished casting?

Exception: If the Druid was hidden from sight, then yes he would have gotten a Surprise Round to cast. Please clear up if the party saw all the elves and vice versa.

Ok, so Init should have been rolled. Now if someone in the party beat the Druid's init, they could then Ready their action. If they have Spellcraft, they can see what exactly the Druid begins casting. Otherwise, they can do what they want (if they don't think the elves are hostile at this point, no reason for them to attack... remember, they beat the Druid's init, so the Druid didn't get to cast yet so they don't know what he is up to).

Now if I was one of your player's in the Entagle, I personally would have dropped prone once I saw arrows fly at us. The Ranger's would get a -4 to hit for firing at a prone character. Did any of them do that?

Also, as a player, I would first be upset too that they dropped Entange and fled. For me (as a player) I would feel cheated, like you were holding back. If a DM fudges rolls or doesn't play enemies to the best of their abilities, it seems like you are being a carebear. What fun is playing a game without any risk? Why even play if there is never a fear of dying?

That being said, if there was an actual reason why they elves withdrew other than ("Well, I didn't want to kill my player's off"), that is a different story. And as someone else mentioned, I might let me player's know there IS a reason they withdrew but it is part of the story and you don't want to ruin it by telling them that reason.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I agree with Saeviomagy.

There are a number of low level spells that can completely hose NPCs. I would rate Grease as roughly as effective overall as Entangle. And a mere Web can take multiple large & very strong monsters completely out of the combat for a critical round or two.

As for Entangle and the PCs, it may be an impressive as a 1st level spell, but the PCs are high enough level they need to know how to handle themselves when hit with 3rd or 4th level spells that temporarily take half the party out of the combat. Some players only know how to maximize offense, and they tend to be slower to get the message.

 

[sullivan]

BTW, despite their whinning, from the limited info provided I think it was a great handling of the possible TPK to have the elves decide that they'd gotten their message across and withdraw after the TKO of the party. Did any of the PCs actually die from the encounter? At 1d8, or 1d8+1 or +2 for Mighty Composites, it would be relatively rare for an longbow to kill outright (barring a critical hit).

P.S. Did you rule the entangling vegetation provide any cover/concealment from ranged weapons? It occurs to me offhand that is a possibility that I don't ever remember giving a ruling on. The spell doesn't provide for it explicitly, but it would seem it is somewhat like a grapple. Just a random thought I'm tossing out here.

 

[Nail]

Yes. Entangle is ridiculous for a 1st-level spell.

Absolutely.

It's range and duration are way off-base. It's AoE of 40'r? Ridiculous. And once you fail the Ref save, yer hosed; a DC 20 Str check for a 1st level spell?

Name one other "area control" spell that is as good at this level. Just one.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

It's range and duration are way off-base. It's AoE of 40'r? Ridiculous. And once you fail the Ref save, yer hosed; a DC 20 Str check for a 1st level spell?

Name one other "area control" spell that is as good at this level. Just one.

My Druid seems to get better results out of Obscuring Mist.

I do not understand the "hosed" assertion. You can still use ranged attacks, activate items, cast spells, and fight (if anybody is within reach).

It is not very common to match up against enemies that have better ranged attacks than a party of PCs IME.

 

[Mistwell]

If I recall correctly, entangle doesn't take you out of the battle, it just prevents movement and forces concentration checks on spellcasting. That's not THAT bad a situation to be in.

SRD:

Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell.

-2 to attack, and -4 to dex, on a failed save, is NOT a spell that should be causing a TPK, nor does it seem particularly overpowered given the limitation that you have to cast it in an area that has the required plant growth, and it stops your own movement and that of your allies as well.

In addition, if there is sufficient plant growth present to entangle you, then there is usually sufficient plant growth to use as cover or concealment. If the plants are more solid (like a tree), it's easy to use it as cover. If it's just bushes, then it's pretty easy to use them as concealment. Either way, you are going to get a boost to your AC or a percentile miss chance placed on your opponants if you take advantage of the blockage provided by the entangling plants. And that AC boost or percentage protection will be right about equivelent to the detriment you are facing with the -2 to attacks and -4 to dex. Your opponants will have a bit of an advantage, but not much of one. Both groups will be stuck with ranged attacks, but that shouldn't generally put the party at a disadvantage either, if they prepared for the adventure properly.

I think your players just didn't play this situation as smart as they could have, and that is why the spell looks so powerful.