Entangle

[Jeff Wilder]

I see that the mage wasn't high enough to have Dispel Magic to counterspell, but that leads use to...

Well, the wizard was a 5th-level character. This illustrates the pain of a drow's +2 ECL. A dispel magic would probably have made the entangle barely an inconvenience.

Basically, I don't think the problem was that entangle is too powerful a spell, but that that party would have had trouble with any hindering spell in an unfavorable environment.

 

[Pickaxe]

My Druid seems to get better results out of Obscuring Mist.

I do not understand the "hosed" assertion. You can still use ranged attacks, activate items, cast spells, and fight (if anybody is within reach).

It is not very common to match up against enemies that have better ranged attacks than a party of PCs IME.

I wouldn't mind hearing more about how you use OM.

Entangle is a spell that drives my DM bonkers. Mind you, we've never played a party higher than 6th level, but he really feels that this 1st level spell is too powerful. The main incidents that have led him to this conclusion usually involve a bunch of humanoids with relatively bad Reflex saves, not very high Strength, and base move of 30' or less (your typical low level encounter). The goblins/gnolls/what have you get entangled either on the first round or else before they can move out of the aoe, they need to roll a 20 to get unentangled, they have crappy ranged weapons, and they get picked off piecemeal. We (the PCs) have never had Entangle used against us, so maybe I'd feel differently as a victim, but I've always argued that these encounters simply played to the strengths of the spell, i.e., battlefield control in the outdoors against low-level, slow-moving creatures. It does nothing indoors, fast-moving, flying, or simply more agile creatures will not be greatly affected, especially at higher levels, and strong creatures will break out relatively easily.

--Axe

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Reasons to cast Obscuring Mist:

(1) Slows down combat. Since the party usually has much more buffing and healing at their disposal than the opposition, a slower pace of fighting tends to favor the party.

(2) Loss of vision impedes effective coordination for both sides. Coordination is a bigger problem for the more numerous side. I cast OM when outnumbered.

(3) Disrupts ranged attacks, obviously. Whether this is a good idea depends a lot on your party makeup. It would not be surprising if a Wizard hates fighting in a mist. At our level our Wizard seems to appreciate not getting hit by arrows and it helps at least as much as it hurts his Color Spray.

I really do not understand why Gnolls and Goblins have such trouble with Entangle. I am sure it is disruptive to their preferred tactics, but humanoids IME are usually equipped with ranged weapons so they are not exactly helpless.

Overall the spell list for the Druid is much weaker than the Wizard or even the Cleric. What I would give for a Sonic Burst or Web! Entangle and Spiked Growth happen to be very good spells if you are in a forest or similar wilderness. That is a big if in most campaigns.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I wouldn't mind hearing more about how you use OM.

Well, for starters:

foes: Entangle!
Party: Obscuring mist!

There. Entangle made (more or less, at this level) useless.

Or
"Aaaargh, the monsters are nastier than we are"

Party: Obscuring mist! *run away in random directions*

 

[Pickaxe]

I really do not understand why Gnolls and Goblins have such trouble with Entangle. I am sure it is disruptive to their preferred tactics, but humanoids IME are usually equipped with ranged weapons so they are not exactly helpless.

In our case, I think it had to do partly with the fact that the encounters were usually random (often from a module), and that the monsters were equipped as per the MM. Goblins only had javelins, which have limited range and poor damage, and the gnolls for whatever reason did not have shortbows; even if they did, they have a low attack bonus, which is even lower when entangled.

Perhaps more importantly, these are just low-level monsters, so they are less likely to save, less likely to escape from entanglement, and it will take them many rounds to get clear of the aoe. To our DM this just seemed to make it too easy for a 1st level party to take out a bunch of creatures that should have been a much greater challenge, according to CR and EL. Again, I'm not necessarily promoting this argument, but I'm curious as to whether other DMs were similarly irked by this spell.

Thanks to both RC and Saev for the tips on OM. I'm currently playing a halfling druid in a fairly tough campaign, and I've been preparing OM more often just as an escape plan. I had also toyed with the idea of trying to combine OM and Faerie Fire in a way that might give our party concealment while denying the enemy the same.

--Axe