D&D 3E/3.5 Epic 6 3.5 Rebuild

tricktroller

Explorer
So I absolutely love 3.5 D&D. I've been playing it since it came out and started playing D&D 25 years ago.
But 3.5 always got out of hand or you ended up with a useless or massively underpowered (compared to others) character at high levels.
We started playing Epic 6 (E6) about 7 years ago and haven't looked back, but there are still lots of issues with regular 3.5 D&D even at E6. SO I started to rewrite the system.
I did not create the Epic 6 rule set, but I think my changes make it come to life in a way that it lacked previously.
I removed a ton of arbitrary rules, reduced skill clutter, added in a ton more skill points, added something I call class additions, which is sort of a mini gestalting, for each class, rebuilt all of the classes that I kept in game (a lot can be emulated by other classes without having to be an entirely different class), and a ton more.
I'm thinking about releasing it for sale under the OGL when I finally have it finished, but I'm not sure if anyone is even interested in buying it.
So I'd like to ask all of y'all if this is something you'd be interested in. I have a link to a google doc (currently something like 88 pages) that would be my new Player's Handbook. I'd also be releasing a Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide once I have them completed.
So my question is, would anyone care to look at my PHB and give any comments or criticisms?
Is this a product you'd be interested in?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
Ooh. Yes, it's in my interest wheelhouse. I've often said that sometimes I feel a bit nostalgic for 3.x, but that I'd want to try out E6 if I ever went back to it.
 

One of the bigger elements about E6 that appealed to me was minimal need for any house rules. I loved the idea of handing players a PH and just 4 pages of E6-related rules (and my minimal house rule changes/additions), and never intending or foreseeing anything more. Any remaining issues I've ever found with the underlying 3.5 rules are so slight as to be irrelevant. Since I have had house-rule sets for other editions that are 60, 100 pages AND MORE (with no end in sight, and struggling to select a set of house rules from all the possibilities that was manageable for myself much less the players), the ability to let a set of rules stand on its own, unmolested, for the entire duration of just one campaign much less more than one was what REALLY sold me on E6.

To each their own and best of luck to you, but 3.5 plus 4 pages of E6/house rules is all I want or need without just changing editions to something else altogether.
 


tricktroller

Explorer
Ooh. Yes, it's in my interest wheelhouse. I've often said that sometimes I feel a bit nostalgic for 3.x, but that I'd want to try out E6 if I ever went back to it.
E6 has been our favorite version of 3.5 D&D and we've been running it solidly for about 4-5 years now with no complaints from any member. You actually feel like a hero in a story, but it is challenging at the same time!
One of the bigger elements about E6 that appealed to me was minimal need for any house rules. I loved the idea of handing players a PH and just 4 pages of E6-related rules (and my minimal house rule changes/additions), and never intending or foreseeing anything more. Any remaining issues I've ever found with the underlying 3.5 rules are so slight as to be irrelevant. Since I have had house-rule sets for other editions that are 60, 100 pages AND MORE (with no end in sight, and struggling to select a set of house rules from all the possibilities that was manageable for myself much less the players), the ability to let a set of rules stand on its own, unmolested, for the entire duration of just one campaign much less more than one was what REALLY sold me on E6.

To each their own and best of luck to you, but 3.5 plus 4 pages of E6/house rules is all I want or need without just changing editions to something else altogether.
I totally understand that, but what I wanted to get away form with this rewrite was the need to dip a dozen classes and take useless feats to try to hit prestige class requirements etc and just be able to play your character the way you wanted.
The idea here is to make a new version of 3.5 that is more balanced and focused around the characters being more than just a pile of classes, stats, and skills.
Each class on its own without feats handles the vast majority of your combat needs and allows players to feel like they can add to each encounter. Each class is much more unique now too, so if you play a rogue and a scout you don't feel like you have two of the exact same character.

Also skill bloat was massive so I trimmed the skills down to 26 or 27 skills in total.
My preferred fantasy game right now is an E8 Pathfinder first ed. What ways does your rewrite differentiate from that?
So similar to E8, your character's class features can expand to 8th effective level in my E6 game but your leveling stops at 6th (hit points, skills, BAB, spells, etc) except when using feats. Each time you hit 6,000 XP you get a new feat which you can use to gain some abilities beyond the scope of 6th level. a 4th levels pell once per week, higher levels of class features, extra skill points, extra stat points, etc.
I've also rewritten/written 27 classes for the game, each with their own selection of additional class features as well as multiple paths inside of their class. I'm in the middle of redoing the spell lists for each class and intend to make them all more or less unique entirely to each class.
Also, I've rewritten about 800 feats, reworked the skill system down to a more manageable size and given out many more skill points, I'm working on redoing armor, shields, and weapons to make them all have a reason for existing rather than just because I need padding for the system, etc.
I added combat actions as well which are sort of like Reactions from 5E but different. The overall goal of the game is to give a 3.5 D&D experience that is much more balanced, allows for more roleplay and gets rid of the need to dip, dive, dodge, duck, and dip your way to get your character to do the things you want them to do. But also multiclassing is available if you really wanted to go for something that specific.
 

tricktroller

Explorer
One of the bigger elements about E6 that appealed to me was minimal need for any house rules. I loved the idea of handing players a PH and just 4 pages of E6-related rules (and my minimal house rule changes/additions), and never intending or foreseeing anything more. Any remaining issues I've ever found with the underlying 3.5 rules are so slight as to be irrelevant. Since I have had house-rule sets for other editions that are 60, 100 pages AND MORE (with no end in sight, and struggling to select a set of house rules from all the possibilities that was manageable for myself much less the players), the ability to let a set of rules stand on its own, unmolested, for the entire duration of just one campaign much less more than one was what REALLY sold me on E6.

To each their own and best of luck to you, but 3.5 plus 4 pages of E6/house rules is all I want or need without just changing editions to something else altogether.
Also, since the 3.5 books aren't in print anymore this would allow newer players to have 3.5 books without having to pay $100 a piece or more for some of them.
 


tricktroller

Explorer
Don't even need books - the SRD is still available and free.
That's a bit reductive don't you think? You only have access to some of the content of 3.5 with the SRD, and while it is the lion's share, it doesn't have everything.

It's also not laid out like a handbook so it's more difficult for newer players.

The whole point of this rewrite isn't just for seasoned 3.5 players. It's to give more options. I've recently started a third group that I run for that is entirely new to 3.5 style players.
 

tricktroller

Explorer
I've just about got the spell lists done for all classes. Each list is 99% unique from other classes. Outside of domains there are now roughly only 600 spells, powers, and invocations in the game. Domains I am currently working on reducing from the mind boggling 106 available domains.
And when I say unique to the class I mean the individual spells not necessarily their functionality. For instance, only Warmage will get fireball, only Sorcerer will get lightning bolts, and only Wizard will get vitriolic sphere. They are each a damage dealing spell but they function differently.
Now personally, as a DM I will allow players to learn spells from other lists by spending time, resources, RPing, using a feat, etc. The idea here is that each spell caster will have a unique way of going about solving problems and hopefully we don't end up with "This is the very best spell for this so it is the only one used and by every class."
 

payn

Legend
I've just about got the spell lists done for all classes. Each list is 99% unique from other classes. Outside of domains there are now roughly only 600 spells, powers, and invocations in the game. Domains I am currently working on reducing from the mind boggling 106 available domains.
And when I say unique to the class I mean the individual spells not necessarily their functionality. For instance, only Warmage will get fireball, only Sorcerer will get lightning bolts, and only Wizard will get vitriolic sphere. They are each a damage dealing spell but they function differently.
Now personally, as a DM I will allow players to learn spells from other lists by spending time, resources, RPing, using a feat, etc. The idea here is that each spell caster will have a unique way of going about solving problems and hopefully we don't end up with "This is the very best spell for this so it is the only one used and by every class."
Have these been playtested? I can easily see a situation where folks start seeing that Class x and y are poor choices to z.
 

tricktroller

Explorer
Have these been playtested? I can easily see a situation where folks start seeing that Class x and y are poor choices to z.
So the lists have not all been playtested but I am currently running for 3 different groups using these rules and have another friend running a game of his own using these rules. SO we are working on it lol. The other thing to keep in mind though is that each class is also totally rewritten. You get class features and abilities at every single level 1-6 and 7-8 effective level.

So the spell list is meant to be complimentary to the class and what it does, as opposed to saying "Fireball is the best spell."
For instance, Duskblades get Haste as a first level spell, not a problem since at first level it targets one creature and lasts for 1 round. At 3rd it hits three targets for 3 rounds, so nothing ground breaking, but a nice boost to the gish in a can.
Spellthief gets things like distract assailant and critical strike
Beguiler gets things like invisibility and bolts of bedevilment etc
So it isn't that any one list has the most potent spells, it's that they each compliment what the class is doing.
 

tricktroller

Explorer
I just realized I talked about what I am working on but never actually posted the link to the google doc, like a moron. Hard to give context without, y'know, the context.
So here is what I have so far in it's unfinished and unpolished form. We are play testing it very heavily at the moment, but I would love to hear your feedback folks. Remember, very little of 3.5 is exactly the same in this version of E6. Feats, classes, races, spells, skills, etc.

So take assumptions about how things used to work and look at this as a more clean slate that is hopefully much more balanced.

 

Zio_the_dark

The dark one :)
I just realized I talked about what I am working on but never actually posted the link to the google doc, like a moron. Hard to give context without, y'know, the context.
So here is what I have so far in it's unfinished and unpolished form. We are play testing it very heavily at the moment, but I would love to hear your feedback folks. Remember, very little of 3.5 is exactly the same in this version of E6. Feats, classes, races, spells, skills, etc.

So take assumptions about how things used to work and look at this as a more clean slate that is hopefully much more balanced.

I won't probably give you feedback but thanks for sharing this ;)
 


payn

Legend
Looked it over. Seems you have taken the race/class/trait/feat/archetype/prestige into a list of packaged classes. Some folks might really enjoy this, however, it cuts the heart right out of 3E/PF1 my favorite fantasy RPG. All those things are why I still use the system. So, I'd give this a whirl, but not likely something id ever run. I do like what you have done, so want to thank you for sharing.
 

tricktroller

Explorer
Well you can still prestige. It's one of the feats. You get the class abilities of the prestige classes, making some of the ones that used to be useless be much more useful. Plus those will be getting some rewrites as well.

You also still get to pick between two class additions or getting star boosts and a feat. Races are still there as well and much more open to fit whatever you might want to roleplay. Like humans can give up bonus skill points to gain lowlight or dark vision, etc.

Do you mean that you no longer have to dip five classes plus a prestige class to get a class that does something special at level 10? Because that was absolutely the point of E6 at it's base and I further pushed it by making each class unique from the others and also being playable beyond a one level dip to get pounce from a barbarian or trapfinding from rogue so you can dip a level in trapsmith to get haste as a level one spell on your swordsage, etc.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying there is still a lot of customization in this version. And you can still multiclass, you just don't get a class addition for your second class.

Also, thank you so much for looking it over and giving feedback!
 

payn

Legend
I always believed E6/8 was to maintain the sweet spot where the system math works best. Where combats are easy to run with reasonable magic, HP, and abilities. Dipping is still prevalent in E6/8 and the system does nothing to discourage it. Though, I'll also say that dipping never bothered me in the least, I'm not the guy you are aiming for if you think its a problem.

As for customization of your system, its ok, I just miss the plethora of options I get from PF1.
 

tricktroller

Explorer
Fair enough! I'm also trying to make this system incredibly easy for players who've never played before that don't want to do hours of theory crafting and dumpster diving for the right feat/race/class/skill trick combo.

I personally also love that about 3.5 but again, trying to make this simpler, especially for new players.

I also think, this way removes the huge disparity in build strength you can have between a badly built character and a min maxer. There will always be min maxing. A Goliath Barbarian with martial maneuvers is gonna kick serious butt in combat, but so is an armored monk hitting with two kukris that do 2d6 base damage and getting 8 attacks in a round.

And so will the wizard and spellthief and swashbuckler. That's probably the biggest goal of this rewrite is to make everyone at the table feel like a hero.
 

payn

Legend
Fair enough! I'm also trying to make this system incredibly easy for players who've never played before that don't want to do hours of theory crafting and dumpster diving for the right feat/race/class/skill trick combo.

I personally also love that about 3.5 but again, trying to make this simpler, especially for new players.

I also think, this way removes the huge disparity in build strength you can have between a badly built character and a min maxer. There will always be min maxing. A Goliath Barbarian with martial maneuvers is gonna kick serious butt in combat, but so is an armored monk hitting with two kukris that do 2d6 base damage and getting 8 attacks in a round.

And so will the wizard and spellthief and swashbuckler. That's probably the biggest goal of this rewrite is to make everyone at the table feel like a hero.
Noble goals and if you really want new players to jump on this I would certainly highlight those points. Perhaps a preview file that articulates why you wrote this system and what you are attempting to save them from. I think understanding those points will be very important if you want to target new players and/or the 3E/PF uninitiated. A few things that might steer me away from your game as a new player. SRD is free. This was covered earlier, but it should not be overlooked. If I was a new player I would want to see for myself if all the hullabaloo about 3E/PF craziness is true by playing as published. Why should I not do that and try your system instead?
 

tricktroller

Explorer
Noble goals and if you really want new players to jump on this I would certainly highlight those points. Perhaps a preview file that articulates why you wrote this system and what you are attempting to save them from. I think understanding those points will be very important if you want to target new players and/or the 3E/PF uninitiated. A few things that might steer me away from your game as a new player. SRD is free. This was covered earlier, but it should not be overlooked. If I was a new player I would want to see for myself if all the hullabaloo about 3E/PF craziness is true by playing as published. Why should I not do that and try your system instead?
All good points and I do fully intend to write a cover page for the book when I am done with it that explains the system.
As for why should they buy this instead of playing the free SRD I would say is due to ease of use, and the fact that all of it is there. The SRD has quite a bit of 3.5 but hardly the largest selection since it includes so little of the massive number of books from 3.5. None of the campaign settings, none of the complete books, none of the races books, etc.
I'm not publishing core content only that is rewritten, and it includes classes, spells, etc that only exist within my system.
So sure if you want to try to teach yourself 3.5 you could spend a very long time reading the SRD, or you could pay a little money and have a system that makes much more sense and is one book for all the classes, etc. I don't expect to make millions but I think it would be a really fun system for folks.
 

Dungeon Delver's Guide

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top