Epic BAB math woes..

[Nyeshet]

The first 20 aberration HD grant +15 BAB. The next four racial levels (essencially what HD are) grant +2 epic BAB. Then the 24 Bbn levels grant +12 epic BAB. Thus the final total is +29/+24/+19. Note that due to the racial HD only granting 3 attacks, that's all the creature will ever have.

You would do better to have taken only ~14 levels of Umber Hulk and six more levels of barbarian. That would result in: +10 BAB (for 14 racial levels), +6 BAB (for 6 bbn levels), +14 epic BAB (for 28 epic levels), for a total of +30/+25/+20/+15. This is both a point higher in attack and has four attacks. Much more powerful, altogether.

 

[Cam Banks]

Hmm. Are the creatures in the Monster Manual and other monster books that have 21 or more HD written up with this in mind? Is their BAB figured by type up to 20 HD, and then with epic BAB afterwards?

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Nail]

Hmm. Are the creatures in the Monster Manual and other monster books that have 21 or more HD written up with this in mind?

No, they are not.

Racial HD do not work like class levels, wrt Epic rules.

 

[Nail]

Page 25, EPH:

Regardless of its ECL, a monster with class levels uses the base attack bonus and base save bonus progressions of its class (rather that the progression shown on Table 1-1) until it has 20 character levels. Beginning with its 21st character level, it uses the progressions shown on table 1-1.

 

[Nail]

Table 1- 1 in the EPH is "Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses", in case you are curious.

 

[Cam Banks]

Page 25, EPH:

So is this an instance where "character levels" only refers to class levels, or to both racial HD and class levels together?

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Since the first part of the phrase is "regardless of its ECL" and the next part refers to "class levels"... I'm assuming that it refers only to "class levels" when it says "character levels" in that particular phrase... I suppose that is a part of the confusion, though... The inconsistent use of Effectve Character Level, Hit Dice, Character Level, Class Level, and Level Adjustment.

Later
silver

 

[kigmatzomat]

Another problem is order of operation.

If both count racial HD and class levels count towards epic, how do you grade which apply to creatures with advanced racial HD? E.G. the advanced umberhulk has BAB +3/4 for the 24 racial HD but +1/1 for the barbarian levels. It's unlikely it grew to 24HD before gaining any class levels but it's equally unlikely it went from the minimum adult racial HD, gained 24 barbarian levels, then picked up the additional racial classes.

This can be clearly seen by running a fighter to 20th level then adding 20 wizard levels: (BAB:20 + Epic AB:10 = 30) vs a wizard 20th followed by fighter 20th (BAB:10 + Epic AB:10 = 20). Similar things happen with saving throws (F:22 R:16 W:16 vs. F:16 R:16 W:22)

House rules abound for this reason. I think they didn't say simply to avoid the conflict.
IMC you can "rearrange" your levels to suit, as long as PrCs come after pre-req levels. This means two F:20/W:20 characters won't necessarily be identical; one could decide to take a BAB hit in return for boosts to the Will save.

 

[Nyeshet]

Okay, I thought I knew the answer, but now I am confused again. Are you saying that the 24 racial HD are ignored when determining BAB?! That a creature with 50 racial HD and 10 Ftr HD has only +10/+5 BAB?! Surely the racial HD must count for something?

Or is this a case of the creature having two sets of attacks - natural and class / learned - each with its own BAB (or BAB equivalent), and neither stacking with the other? Thus the initial example would be an Umber Hawk that - each round - would have to choose between using its natural attack: a single +17 slam attack, or its Barbarian learned BAB: +22/+17/+12/+7?

Considering the creature has 48 HD I can't see it surviving for long if the racial and class HD do not stack in some manner.

 

[Jack Simth]

Actually, I suspect a strict reading of the rules lends to either

+16 Racial BAB (iterative enabled)
+15 3/4ths Class BAB (iterative enabled)
+5 Epic Attack Bonus
So that the final combat routine is +36/+31/+26/+21/+16/+11/+6

or

+16 Racial BAB (iterative enabled)
+3 3/4ths Class BAB (Iterative Enabled) for four levels
+13 Epic Attack Bonus (Iterative Disabled) for 26 levels
So that the final combat routine is +32/+27/+22/+17

Depending on whether or not racial HD apply to the "character levels" portion of being Epic.

Hmm.....