Epic BAB math woes..

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

A 24th level human fighter has a BAB of +22 (+0 HD, +20 Class, +2 Epic) ECL 24, CR 24

A 24th level great wyrm red dragon fighter has a BAB of 62 (+40 HD, +20 Class, +2 Epic) ECL [unrated] CR 50

A 24th level great wyrm red dragon sorcerer has a BAB of 52 (+40 HD, +10 Class, +2 Epic) ECL [unrated] CR 50 (and has a caster level of 39, but that's unrelated)

 

[TheGogmagog]

Actually, I suspect a strict reading of the rules lends to either

+16 Racial BAB (iterative enabled)
+15 3/4ths Class BAB (iterative enabled)
+5 Epic Attack Bonus
So that the final combat routine is +36/+31/+26/+21/+16/+11/+6

I believe this is correct, Except you don't gain additional attacks once you go epic, so you would only have three attacks at +36/+31/+26.

The epic fighter gets 5 attacks, it doesn't make sense to have an epic fighter with racial HD to have another 3. I don't know if it's house rule or not, but I wouldn't allow racial BAB to stack with class BAB when calculating the number of attacks in a round. I'm not big on monstous PC's though.

 

[Pinotage]

It's generally considered a bit of a messy business, but the 3.5e FAQ indicates that a monster reaches epic levels when its racial HD and class levels exceed 20, i.e. become 21. So, in theory, any creature with 20+ HD would be eligable for epic feats, for example. I think it's easiest to draw a line somewhere - if you're playing an epic game, stick to core, non-epic rules, but if you're going with an epic game, give some of those classes giants epic feats.

Note that no character or monster can gain more than 4 iterative attacks with a weapon based on BAB, regardless of BAB value. i.e. a fighter with BAB +48 still only gains 4 attacks.

Edit: In theory, BAB should be capped at +20. After that it's not BAB anymore, but merely epic attack bonus.

Pinotage

 

[kigmatzomat]

Edit: In theory, BAB should be capped at +20. After that it's not BAB anymore, but merely epic attack bonus.

Except that creatures continue to gain BAB in accordance to their HD type with >20 HD. So confusion whammy.

I only recommend being consistent. Decide which is appropriate for your game and stick with it.

 

[FEADIN]

That's how it works, BAB from the HD (see some outsiders in the Monsters) and if you get a class you stack the "normal" BAB until you go over 20 lvl.
There is a boxed text in the ELH at the bottom of a page speaking of this.
ANGEL, SOLAR
Hit Dice:22d8+110 (209 hp)
Base Attack/Grapple:+22/+35

 

[sukael]

That's how it works, BAB from the HD (see some outsiders in the Monsters) and if you get a class you stack the "normal" BAB until you go over 20 lvl.
There is a boxed text in the ELH at the bottom of a page speaking of this.
ANGEL, SOLAR
Hit Dice:22d8+110 (209 hp)
Base Attack/Grapple:+22/+35

Yeah. You always get full BAB from racial HD, whether or not they're over 20; your class levels over 20 switch to Epic Attack Bonus. (At least, as far as I can tell from examples and such.)

So, say, a 15 HD dragon with 10 levels of fighter would have +20 BAB, then +3 Epic Attack Bonus.

Were he to gain more racial HD later (possible as per, say, the Draconomicon rules), those racial levels would "bump up" the fighter levels. Thus, when he grew to having 25 racial HD, and 15 fighter levels, he would have a +25 BAB and a +8 Epic Attack Bonus. (Again, at least as far as I can tell.)

In any case, you still can't get more than 4 iterative attacks from BAB/EAB.

 

[Nyeshet]

However, the subject of the thread is a 24 HD aberration with 24 class levels. Thus the maximum number of attacks it will ever have is (arguably) three due to the aberration 3/4 BAB. Granted, aberrations only have one (or more) natural attacks, rather than BAB progression of attacks, but if the initial HD of the creature do not take precident, then - in theory - a 20 HD humanoid creature with 20 levels in wizard / etc would have 4 attacks (rather than the 3 typical of 3/4 humanoid BAB or the 2 typical of the wizard class.

Actually, now that I think about it, that is a bit of an odd situation, isn't it?

If a creature that was of the Humanoid type - with 14 racial HD and a single slam attck - took 11 levels of wizard, how many attacks would it have? Would it have 3 (the typical of a creature of that level with 3/4 bab), would it have 4 (as some arguments on this thread seem to suggest - that all pure creatures or 'more than a few HD' creatures that take enough levels in a class eventually have 4 attacks - even if this is not possible until into epic level), or would it have 2, the number expected of wizards?

It seems that the rules would state it only has 2 attacks, for its HD is one short of the necessary number for 3 attacks, and wizard levels do not grant the option of a third attack even in epic levels. On the other hand, if later the creature should choose to take a single racial HD - advancing himself in a racial level rather than a class level, suddenly he has 3 attacks - even if the base attack bonus was well beyond what is typically necessary for such prior to that racial level - and upon taking the 15th racial level is actually high enough to qualify for four attacks (+16) - if such is an option.

The whole situation with BAB is just a little confusing whenever class levels and racial levels mix.

 

[Knight Otu]

[sblock]A 16 HD Efreeti with 20 levels in Bard and 10 levels in a homebrew "courtier" PrC ends up with:
+16 for 16 HD, +15 for 20 levels in Bard, and then +5 since the next ten levels are "epic" for a grand total of +36. Thus a full attack would run +36/+31/+26/+21. [/sblock]

How I have always done it, and I believe that is the correct way:

+16 for the racial HD.
+3 for the 4 levels before hitting 20 HD.
+13 for the levels beyond 20th.
For a total BAB/EAB of +32/+27/+22/+17.

If the creature had 20 or more racial HD, it would gain the full BAB for the racial HD, and the epic progression would apply to class levels.

I'm reasonably certain that the deities were built that way. Unfortunately, the only recent example of such a creature I could (eldritch giant confessor, MMIII) does not strengthen my position - it gains the full BAB increase for its cleric levels.

 

[FEADIN]

That's the way it is wrotten in the ELH, BAB for the HD, "normal" BAB for level up to 20 (not epic bab even if you have already 20+hd), HD don't count toward epic BAB.
For the other post:...
If a creature that was of the Humanoid type - with 14 racial HD and a single slam attck - took 11 levels of wizard, how many attacks would it have? Would it have 3 (the typical of a creature of that level with 3/4 bab), would it have 4 (as some arguments on this thread seem to suggest - that all pure creatures or 'more than a few HD' creatures that take enough levels in a class eventually have 4 attacks - even if this is not possible until into epic level), or would it have 2, the number expected of wizards?
.....
You have to look at the BAB, not the levels.
If you have a wizard 12 with BAB +6, who takes 30 fighter levels his BAB will be....+14 for only 3 att/round, on top of that he will have an EPIC attack bonus of +11.
Even if the text speak about other rule I think it's for Epic consideration not for the PHB rule
(maybe I'm wrong, how do you read this?)
Epic Attack Bonus: Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus, use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus

 

[Knight Otu]

That's the way it is wrotten in the ELH, BAB for the HD, "normal" BAB for level up to 20 (not epic bab even if you have already 20+hd), HD don't count toward epic BAB.

The way it is written in the ELH, it is normal BAB until character level 20. Most of the time, character level and Hit Dice are interchangeable. There is one fully-stated character in the ELH where this would make a difference - Gerti Orelsdotter. She is a frost giant (14 giant HD; +10 BAB) cleric 5 (+3 BAB) Runecaster 4 (+3 BAB). Total BAB of 16.

The way I do it, though, she has 23 hit dice. The first 20 (giant HD, 5 cleric levels, 1 runecaster level) would grant a +13 BAB as per above. The three Runecaster levels above 20 would grant an Epic Attack Bonus of +2, for a total of +15, one less than above.

Large size, Strength 29, Dex 10. Any melee attack should be at +24. Any ranged attack should be at +15.
Her melee attack is at +23, however, and her rock attack at +15 - thanks to the +1 racial bonus a giant gets on that roll.