D&D 5E (2024) Epic Boons Ranking

[Silam]

A better way, in my humble opinion, is for characters to transition into Godhood after level 20, taking Divine Ranks rather than extra class levels - but I am sure everyone has their own opinion on that.

That’s too soon IMHO. In my mind, there is a wide gulf between level 20 characters and gods. That gulf is made up of a lot of epic levels.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Silam,

That’s too soon IMHO. In my mind, there is a wide gulf between level 20 characters and gods.

Depends on the power of the god.

For starters you have Hero-deities and Quasi-deities (Divine Ranks 1 and 2 respectively) which are 'Godlings' that likely still dwell on the mortal plane.

These would be beings like Kelanen and Melf, or the Simbul, Tasha, Elminster, etc.

Then you have Demigods (Divine Rank 3) on par with Demon Lords, Dukes of Hell, and so forth.

That gulf is made up of a lot of epic levels.

Unnecessary book-keeping that will more often than not needlessly complicate your game. Plus the micro-managing of individual levels beyond 20 always gives ever diminishing returns.

For example at a hypothetical level 21 is a 4.76% increase in power, level 31 is a 3.22% increase in power, level 41 is a 2.43% difference. There is no meaningful difference.

Whereas each Divine Rank is roughly a 50% increase in power.

This way you get meaningful change at each rank - you can have Thor, Thanos, Goku or whatever without compromising power. If you want planet busting Galactus or Frieza you can have that...in fact I did a Challenge Rating 52 version of Frieza in the previews thread.

 

[Silam]

Hey there Silam,



Depends on the power of the god.

For starters you have Hero-deities and Quasi-deities (Divine Ranks 1 and 2 respectively) which are 'Godlings' that likely still dwell on the mortal plane.

These would be beings like Kelanen and Melf, or the Simbul, Tasha, Elminster, etc.

Then you have Demigods (Divine Rank 3) on par with Demon Lords, Dukes of Hell, and so forth.



Unnecessary book-keeping that will more often than not needlessly complicate your game. Plus the micro-managing of individual levels beyond 20 always gives ever diminishing returns.

For example at a hypothetical level 21 is a 4.76% increase in power, level 31 is a 3.22% increase in power, level 41 is a 2.43% difference. There is no meaningful difference.

Whereas each Divine Rank is roughly a 50% increase in power.

This way you get meaningful change at each rank - you can have Thor, Thanos, Goku or whatever without compromising power. If you want planet busting Galactus or Frieza you can have that...in fact I did a Challenge Rating 52 version of Frieza in the previews thread.

I mean, what you’re describing is fine. I don’t think there is a right or wrong way to design epic levels, godhood and every increment in-between. Different tables will have different preferences.

I personally don’t consider Elminster to be at even the first increment towards godhood. In my mind, he’s a 40-ish level character, which is very powerful and happens to be the most powerful being in Faerun. He happens to be quite heavily multi-classed (in 2e lore he was dual-classed into 4 classes, IIRC). He is also a Chosen of Mystra, which gives him some extra goodies, but still "just" an epic character.

But it doesn’t really matter… my interpretation above is not the only way to model that level of play. You can certainly do away with levels and transition to more coarse increments of progress, each carrying more dramatic power ups than a single level can. It means leveling is less of a grind and power increases are more sudden, kind of like the big power ups we see in mangas (DBZ, Naruro, etc). For some stories and tables this works absolutely great, and there’s nothing wrong with it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I mean, what you’re describing is fine. I don’t think there is a right or wrong way to design epic levels, godhood and every increment in-between. Different tables will have different preferences.

I would argue some ways to design epic levels or godhood are simpler than others, more accessible than others, less book-keeping than others and easier to balance than others.

To some, that might constitute 'better'.

But the truism is you cannot please all the people all the time.

I personally don’t consider Elminster to be at even the first increment towards godhood. In my mind, he’s a 40-ish level character, which is very powerful and happens to be the most powerful being in Faerun.

In your opinion what level would a quasi-deity be or be comparable to?

He happens to be quite heavily multi-classed (in 2e lore he was dual-classed into 4 classes, IIRC).

No real reason for it though and if we were building him in 5e he'd be a level 20 Wizard most likely.

He is also a Chosen of Mystra, which gives him some extra goodies, but still "just" an epic character.

Chosen of Mystra is no different to a Saintly figure. Chosen of God.

But it doesn’t really matter… my interpretation above is not the only way to model that level of play. You can certainly do away with levels and transition to more coarse increments of progress, each carrying more dramatic power ups than a single level can. It means leveling is less of a grind and power increases are more sudden, kind of like the big power ups we see in mangas (DBZ, Naruro, etc). For some stories and tables this works absolutely great, and there’s nothing wrong with it.

I agree.

But I have a bit of experience with Epic 3rd edition you might say and eventually came to the realisation that infinite mortal levelling was a bit of a fool's errand and a nightmare to try and balance.

 

[Silam]

I would argue some ways to design epic levels or godhood are simpler than others, more accessible than others, less book-keeping than others and easier to balance than others.

To some, that might constitute 'better'.

But the truism is you cannot please all the people all the time.



In your opinion what level would a quasi-deity be or be comparable to?

To me it’s about mortality. There are some ways to not die of old age (Monk, etc), and Chosen of Mystra also gave immunity to aging in 3e. But not dying of old age is different from immortality.

In my mind, it should only be possible for a god to kill another god. Or alternatively, in some settings/mythologies, if a god loses all of their followers and believers, then they might "die", or transition into some kind of dormant state of "forgotten god" in which they lose all powers. But regardless of the details, an epic level character, no matter how powerful, can at most be a thorn in the side of a god, thwarting their plans, etc, but never a mortal threat.

As for demi-gods, I guess that depends again on the mythology. Maybe only demi-gods and higher can kill them. Or maybe a mortal in very special circumstances has a shot at doing it too (maybe requiring indirect help from a god, e.g., given the information that only the heel wasn’t dipped in immortality oil). But in any case, it shouldn’t be a simple pedestrian matter of dealing enough damage.

Besides mortality (or lack thereof), deities should have gradually increasing ability to grant powers to their followers. As deities grow in divine rank, the scale of followers they can support should grow also. But as they grow in followers (both count and potency), there is a bit of plot force that pulls them away slightly from the realm of mortals. They should act directly only rarely, and instead effect the world through the actions of their followers. It is hard to model this via rules, and is more of a story-telling thing the DM needs to take care of. Again, this is setting-dependent, but in general, I think it makes sense.

No real reason for it though and if we were building him in 5e he'd be a level 20 Wizard most likely.

Well, that was his backstory, as far as I remember. Ed Greenwood wrote a novel on it I think. If I recall correctly, he started off as a thief (2e Rogue), and was a brigand or whatever, then became a fighter (or the other way around, not sure), then became a cleric of Mystra and only after all that did he finally become a mage, and not just any mage, the greatest mage the realms had ever seen.

With 5e rules, you could be rogue 1, fighter 1, cleric 1, wizard 17 and barely attain 9th level spells, so the canonical story is still workable, but he can’t spare a single level outside the wizard class otherwise he would be barred forever from learning 9th level spells and I think we all agree an Elminster build without 9th level spells would just be incredibly dumb.

 

[Silam]

I would argue some ways to design epic levels or godhood are simpler than others, more accessible than others, less book-keeping than others and easier to balance than others.

[…]

But I have a bit of experience with Epic 3rd edition you might say and eventually came to the realisation that infinite mortal levelling was a bit of a fool's errand and a nightmare to try and balance.

As for this… I think the leveling approach gives greater flexibility. You can gain one level at a time, or gain several levels after having done truly epic deeds. For example, in some of our epic campaigns, we used to wipe entire armies of thousands + the high level generals leading those armies. With these kinds of massive encounters, it could happen that we earned more than one level at a time. So if the story calls for bigger jumps in power, it is still feasible.

 

[Clint_L]

My concerns are 100% in the opposite direction: how to keep the stories personal even as characters become more powerful. I have less than zero interest in DMing a game of gods vs. gods or superhero PCs taking out armies. That's just not my taste. So I like epic boons that will create awesome story moments, but not to the point that suddenly the characters think they are gods...not that gods are all that, in my campaign.

 

[Upper_Krust]

To me it’s about mortality. There are some ways to not die of old age (Monk, etc), and Chosen of Mystra also gave immunity to aging in 3e. But not dying of old age is different from immortality.

That is literally immortality.

But in D&D I suppose immortality has long been synonymous with divine power and godhood.

In my mind, it should only be possible for a god to kill another god.

That argument always seemed like a cop out to me and the least fun involvement of immortals. All power is relative.

Or alternatively, in some settings/mythologies, if a god loses all of their followers and believers, then they might "die", or transition into some kind of dormant state of "forgotten god" in which they lose all powers.

Some immortals have, and are in some way powered by worshippers...others (like the Primordials) either do not or have so few it doesn't matter to them.

the way I handle this in the book is:

• If divine power from worship exceeds power from experience then you are technically a 'God'.
• If divine power from experience exceeds power from worship you are an 'Anti-god'.

But both are added together to determine your divine power.

But regardless of the details, an epic level character, no matter how powerful, can at most be a thorn in the side of a god, thwarting their plans, etc, but never a mortal threat.

Tell that to Gareth Dragonsbane and the heroes who slew Orcus.

As for demi-gods, I guess that depends again on the mythology. Maybe only demi-gods and higher can kill them. Or maybe a mortal in very special circumstances has a shot at doing it too (maybe requiring indirect help from a god, e.g., given the information that only the heel wasn’t dipped in immortality oil). But in any case, it shouldn’t be a simple pedestrian matter of dealing damage.

In my rules, when you slay a God's Physical (manifestation) form it has two options:

1. Assume it's True (Mythic) form and stay in the battle, but know that death in Mythic Form is it's true, Astral death.
2. Instantly return to its Divine Realm (in Mythic form), and regrow its Physical Form after 24 hours.

so simply slaying its Physical form won't kill it.

Besides mortality (or lack thereof), deities should have gradually increasing ability to grant powers to their followers. As deities grow in divine rank, the scale of followers they can support should grow also. But as they grow in followers (both count and potency), there is a bit of plot force that pulls them away slightly from the realm of mortals. They should act directly only rarely, and instead effect the world through the actions of theirs followers. It is hard to model this via rules, and is more of a story-telling thing the DM needs to take care of. Again, this is setting-dependent, but in general, I think it makes sense.

Hero-deities and Quasi-deities can act upon the mortal realm with impunity. But Demigods and above cannot directly intervene except in a few situations.

Well, that was his backstory, as far as I remember. Ed Greenwood wrote a novel on it I think. If I recall correctly, he started off as a thief (2e Rogue), and was a brigand or whatever, then became a fighter (or the other way around, not sure), then became a cleric of Mystra and only after all that did he finally become a mage, and not just any mage, the greatest mage the realms had ever seen.

With 5e rules, you could be rogue 1, fighter 1, cleric 1, wizard 17 and barely attain 9th level spells, so the canonical story is still workable, but he can’t spare a single level outside the wizard class otherwise he would be barred forever from learning 9th level spells and I think we all agree an Elminster build without 9th level spells would just be incredibly dumb.

Agreed.

 

[Silam]

That is literally immortality.

Not dying of old age is longevity. Not dying at all is immortality. In scientific terms, "all cause mortality" includes not just heart attacks and liver failure and so on, but also car accidents, homicide, etc. By the RAW, a high level Monk is immune to the former, but not the latter … In my view, a god should not die from a car crash …

Maybe the distinction is debatable, but to me longevity and immortality are different concepts.

In my rules, when you slay a God's Physical (manifestation) form it has two options:

1. Assume it's True (Mythic) form and stay in the battle, but know that death in Mythic Form is it's true, Astral death.
2. Instantly return to its Divine Realm (in Mythic form), and regrow its Physical Form after 24 hours.

so simply slaying its Physical form won't kill it.

Yeah, gods having avatars when they show up in the material plane is a well accepted trope… and them going back to their original plane if slain in that form (just like regular outsiders…) is fine.

The part about the Mythic Form being available as a fallback, but being mortal, can be an interesting mechanic I guess. I can totally see that working great in some specific setting where the DM carefully weaves the story around these concepts. With the right narrative it can land well. Though I think it’s slightly on the exotic side, and in some cosmologies it may feel a bit out of place…

I guess it would depend a lot on the details… how "mortal" is the Mythic Form really? If it’s squishy (by godly standards) that would probably take away a bit of credibility and immersion for me personally. If it’s nearly immortal in Mythic Form then maybe it’s not a big deal, but then IDK if having the mechanic at all is that useful?

Anyhow… it doesn’t really matter. As long as some folks get value out of it, then it’s great to have that content out there and available! It certainly should not be a goal to please me specifically …