D&D 5E (2024) Epic Boons Ranking

[Silam]

A better way, in my humble opinion, is for characters to transition into Godhood after level 20, taking Divine Ranks rather than extra class levels - but I am sure everyone has their own opinion on that.

That’s too soon IMHO. In my mind, there is a wide gulf between level 20 characters and gods. That gulf is made up of a lot of epic levels.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Silam,

That’s too soon IMHO. In my mind, there is a wide gulf between level 20 characters and gods.

Depends on the power of the god.

For starters you have Hero-deities and Quasi-deities (Divine Ranks 1 and 2 respectively) which are 'Godlings' that likely still dwell on the mortal plane.

These would be beings like Kelanen and Melf, or the Simbul, Tasha, Elminster, etc.

Then you have Demigods (Divine Rank 3) on par with Demon Lords, Dukes of Hell, and so forth.

That gulf is made up of a lot of epic levels.

Unnecessary book-keeping that will more often than not needlessly complicate your game. Plus the micro-managing of individual levels beyond 20 always gives ever diminishing returns.

For example at a hypothetical level 21 is a 4.76% increase in power, level 31 is a 3.22% increase in power, level 41 is a 2.43% difference. There is no meaningful difference.

Whereas each Divine Rank is roughly a 50% increase in power.

This way you get meaningful change at each rank - you can have Thor, Thanos, Goku or whatever without compromising power. If you want planet busting Galactus or Frieza you can have that...in fact I did a Challenge Rating 52 version of Frieza in the previews thread.

 

[Silam]

Hey there Silam,



Depends on the power of the god.

For starters you have Hero-deities and Quasi-deities (Divine Ranks 1 and 2 respectively) which are 'Godlings' that likely still dwell on the mortal plane.

These would be beings like Kelanen and Melf, or the Simbul, Tasha, Elminster, etc.

Then you have Demigods (Divine Rank 3) on par with Demon Lords, Dukes of Hell, and so forth.



Unnecessary book-keeping that will more often than not needlessly complicate your game. Plus the micro-managing of individual levels beyond 20 always gives ever diminishing returns.

For example at a hypothetical level 21 is a 4.76% increase in power, level 31 is a 3.22% increase in power, level 41 is a 2.43% difference. There is no meaningful difference.

Whereas each Divine Rank is roughly a 50% increase in power.

This way you get meaningful change at each rank - you can have Thor, Thanos, Goku or whatever without compromising power. If you want planet busting Galactus or Frieza you can have that...in fact I did a Challenge Rating 52 version of Frieza in the previews thread.

I mean, what you’re describing is fine. I don’t think there is a right or wrong way to design epic levels, godhood and every increment in-between. Different tables will have different preferences.

I personally don’t consider Elminster to be at even the first increment towards godhood. In my mind, he’s a 40-ish level character, which is very powerful and happens to be the most powerful being in Faerun. He happens to be quite heavily multi-classed (in 2e lore he was dual-classed into 4 classes, IIRC). He is also a Chosen of Mystra, which gives him some extra goodies, but still "just" an epic character.

But it doesn’t really matter… my interpretation above is not the only way to model that level of play. You can certainly do away with levels and transition to more coarse increments of progress, each carrying more dramatic power ups than a single level can. It means leveling is less of a grind and power increases are more sudden, kind of like the big power ups we see in mangas (DBZ, Naruro, etc). For some stories and tables this works absolutely great, and there’s nothing wrong with it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I mean, what you’re describing is fine. I don’t think there is a right or wrong way to design epic levels, godhood and every increment in-between. Different tables will have different preferences.

I would argue some ways to design epic levels or godhood are simpler than others, more accessible than others, less book-keeping than others and easier to balance than others.

To some, that might constitute 'better'.

But the truism is you cannot please all the people all the time.

I personally don’t consider Elminster to be at even the first increment towards godhood. In my mind, he’s a 40-ish level character, which is very powerful and happens to be the most powerful being in Faerun.

In your opinion what level would a quasi-deity be or be comparable to?

He happens to be quite heavily multi-classed (in 2e lore he was dual-classed into 4 classes, IIRC).

No real reason for it though and if we were building him in 5e he'd be a level 20 Wizard most likely.

He is also a Chosen of Mystra, which gives him some extra goodies, but still "just" an epic character.

Chosen of Mystra is no different to a Saintly figure. Chosen of God.

But it doesn’t really matter… my interpretation above is not the only way to model that level of play. You can certainly do away with levels and transition to more coarse increments of progress, each carrying more dramatic power ups than a single level can. It means leveling is less of a grind and power increases are more sudden, kind of like the big power ups we see in mangas (DBZ, Naruro, etc). For some stories and tables this works absolutely great, and there’s nothing wrong with it.

I agree.

But I have a bit of experience with Epic 3rd edition you might say and eventually came to the realisation that infinite mortal levelling was a bit of a fool's errand and a nightmare to try and balance.

 

[Silam]

I would argue some ways to design epic levels or godhood are simpler than others, more accessible than others, less book-keeping than others and easier to balance than others.

To some, that might constitute 'better'.

But the truism is you cannot please all the people all the time.



In your opinion what level would a quasi-deity be or be comparable to?

To me it’s about mortality. There are some ways to not die of old age (Monk, etc), and Chosen of Mystra also gave immunity to aging in 3e. But not dying of old age is different from immortality.

In my mind, it should only be possible for a god to kill another god. Or alternatively, in some settings/mythologies, if a god loses all of their followers and believers, then they might "die", or transition into some kind of dormant state of "forgotten god" in which they lose all powers. But regardless of the details, an epic level character, no matter how powerful, can at most be a thorn in the side of a god, thwarting their plans, etc, but never a mortal threat.

As for demi-gods, I guess that depends again on the mythology. Maybe only demi-gods and higher can kill them. Or maybe a mortal in very special circumstances has a shot at doing it too (maybe requiring indirect help from a god, e.g., given the information that only the heel wasn’t dipped in immortality oil). But in any case, it shouldn’t be a simple pedestrian matter of dealing enough damage.

Besides mortality (or lack thereof), deities should have gradually increasing ability to grant powers to their followers. As deities grow in divine rank, the scale of followers they can support should grow also. But as they grow in followers (both count and potency), there is a bit of plot force that pulls them away slightly from the realm of mortals. They should act directly only rarely, and instead effect the world through the actions of their followers. It is hard to model this via rules, and is more of a story-telling thing the DM needs to take care of. Again, this is setting-dependent, but in general, I think it makes sense.

No real reason for it though and if we were building him in 5e he'd be a level 20 Wizard most likely.

Well, that was his backstory, as far as I remember. Ed Greenwood wrote a novel on it I think. If I recall correctly, he started off as a thief (2e Rogue), and was a brigand or whatever, then became a fighter (or the other way around, not sure), then became a cleric of Mystra and only after all that did he finally become a mage, and not just any mage, the greatest mage the realms had ever seen.

With 5e rules, you could be rogue 1, fighter 1, cleric 1, wizard 17 and barely attain 9th level spells, so the canonical story is still workable, but he can’t spare a single level outside the wizard class otherwise he would be barred forever from learning 9th level spells and I think we all agree an Elminster build without 9th level spells would just be incredibly dumb.

 

[Silam]

I would argue some ways to design epic levels or godhood are simpler than others, more accessible than others, less book-keeping than others and easier to balance than others.

[…]

But I have a bit of experience with Epic 3rd edition you might say and eventually came to the realisation that infinite mortal levelling was a bit of a fool's errand and a nightmare to try and balance.

As for this… I think the leveling approach gives greater flexibility. You can gain one level at a time, or gain several levels after having done truly epic deeds. For example, in some of our epic campaigns, we used to wipe entire armies of thousands + the high level generals leading those armies. With these kinds of massive encounters, it could happen that we earned more than one level at a time. So if the story calls for bigger jumps in power, it is still feasible.

 

[Clint_L]

My concerns are 100% in the opposite direction: how to keep the stories personal even as characters become more powerful. I have less than zero interest in DMing a game of gods vs. gods or superhero PCs taking out armies. That's just not my taste. So I like epic boons that will create awesome story moments, but not to the point that suddenly the characters think they are gods...not that gods are all that, in my campaign.

 

[Upper_Krust]

To me it’s about mortality. There are some ways to not die of old age (Monk, etc), and Chosen of Mystra also gave immunity to aging in 3e. But not dying of old age is different from immortality.

That is literally immortality.

But in D&D I suppose immortality has long been synonymous with divine power and godhood.

In my mind, it should only be possible for a god to kill another god.

That argument always seemed like a cop out to me and the least fun involvement of immortals. All power is relative.

Or alternatively, in some settings/mythologies, if a god loses all of their followers and believers, then they might "die", or transition into some kind of dormant state of "forgotten god" in which they lose all powers.

Some immortals have, and are in some way powered by worshippers...others (like the Primordials) either do not or have so few it doesn't matter to them.

the way I handle this in the book is:

• If divine power from worship exceeds power from experience then you are technically a 'God'.
• If divine power from experience exceeds power from worship you are an 'Anti-god'.

But both are added together to determine your divine power.

But regardless of the details, an epic level character, no matter how powerful, can at most be a thorn in the side of a god, thwarting their plans, etc, but never a mortal threat.

Tell that to Gareth Dragonsbane and the heroes who slew Orcus.

As for demi-gods, I guess that depends again on the mythology. Maybe only demi-gods and higher can kill them. Or maybe a mortal in very special circumstances has a shot at doing it too (maybe requiring indirect help from a god, e.g., given the information that only the heel wasn’t dipped in immortality oil). But in any case, it shouldn’t be a simple pedestrian matter of dealing damage.

In my rules, when you slay a God's Physical (manifestation) form it has two options:

1. Assume it's True (Mythic) form and stay in the battle, but know that death in Mythic Form is it's true, Astral death.
2. Instantly return to its Divine Realm (in Mythic form), and regrow its Physical Form after 24 hours.

so simply slaying its Physical form won't kill it.

Besides mortality (or lack thereof), deities should have gradually increasing ability to grant powers to their followers. As deities grow in divine rank, the scale of followers they can support should grow also. But as they grow in followers (both count and potency), there is a bit of plot force that pulls them away slightly from the realm of mortals. They should act directly only rarely, and instead effect the world through the actions of theirs followers. It is hard to model this via rules, and is more of a story-telling thing the DM needs to take care of. Again, this is setting-dependent, but in general, I think it makes sense.

Hero-deities and Quasi-deities can act upon the mortal realm with impunity. But Demigods and above cannot directly intervene except in a few situations.

Well, that was his backstory, as far as I remember. Ed Greenwood wrote a novel on it I think. If I recall correctly, he started off as a thief (2e Rogue), and was a brigand or whatever, then became a fighter (or the other way around, not sure), then became a cleric of Mystra and only after all that did he finally become a mage, and not just any mage, the greatest mage the realms had ever seen.

With 5e rules, you could be rogue 1, fighter 1, cleric 1, wizard 17 and barely attain 9th level spells, so the canonical story is still workable, but he can’t spare a single level outside the wizard class otherwise he would be barred forever from learning 9th level spells and I think we all agree an Elminster build without 9th level spells would just be incredibly dumb.

Agreed.

 

[Silam]

That is literally immortality.

Not dying of old age is longevity. Not dying at all is immortality. In scientific terms, "all cause mortality" includes not just heart attacks and liver failure and so on, but also car accidents, homicide, etc. By the RAW, a high level Monk is immune to the former, but not the latter … In my view, a god should not die from a car crash …

Maybe the distinction is debatable, but to me longevity and immortality are different concepts.

In my rules, when you slay a God's Physical (manifestation) form it has two options:

1. Assume it's True (Mythic) form and stay in the battle, but know that death in Mythic Form is it's true, Astral death.
2. Instantly return to its Divine Realm (in Mythic form), and regrow its Physical Form after 24 hours.

so simply slaying its Physical form won't kill it.

Yeah, gods having avatars when they show up in the material plane is a well accepted trope… and them going back to their original plane if slain in that form (just like regular outsiders…) is fine.

The part about the Mythic Form being available as a fallback, but being mortal, can be an interesting mechanic I guess. I can totally see that working great in some specific setting where the DM carefully weaves the story around these concepts. With the right narrative it can land well. Though I think it’s slightly on the exotic side, and in some cosmologies it may feel a bit out of place…

I guess it would depend a lot on the details… how "mortal" is the Mythic Form really? If it’s squishy (by godly standards) that would probably take away a bit of credibility and immersion for me personally. If it’s nearly immortal in Mythic Form then maybe it’s not a big deal, but then IDK if having the mechanic at all is that useful?

Anyhow… it doesn’t really matter. As long as some folks get value out of it, then it’s great to have that content out there and available! It certainly should not be a goal to please me specifically …

 

[Blue]

What are your thoughts on how the epic boons stack up?

I'm going to go through your list, but modified for a table where only 1/3 of the challenges are combat, and the other challenges are just as, well, challenging as a 19th+ level combat. You're more generally applicable, this is just an alternate viewpoint.

Combat Prowess: once per round, turn one miss into a hit. "A" tier for martial classes, "S" tier for rogues. If you have a lot of attacks, you are likely to use this once per turn, and if you rely heavily on a single attack and need to make sure it hits (i.e. you're a rogue), this seems essential.

Combat only, "C".

Dimensional Travel: after taking the magic or attack action, you may immediately teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space you can see. "A" tier for any class. This is just incredibly valuable in so many situations. And fun!

Useful in and out of combat, as long as you have ways to trigger a Magic Action without using resources. "B".

Energy Resistance: you gain resistance to TWO damage types, excluding bludgeoning, piercing, slashing, or force, and can change those resistances after a long rest. Also, if you take damage from one of those types that you are resistant to, as a reaction you may do 2d12+con modifier damage of the same type to any creature you can see that is within 60 feet and doesn't have total cover, unless they make a dex save (DC 8+con modifier+proficiency bonus). Whew. "C" tier for any class...maybe "B" if you are a specific type of tank. Maybe. The damage redirect is fairly worthless at high levels, so really it just gives you two resistances that you can change. Which is...okay, but resistance isn't too hard to come by at level 19 if you really need it.

While there exist some clever uses for non-combat challenges, this is mostly combat only, and even there only some combats. "D".

Fate: whenever any creature succeeds OR fails on a d20 test, you can add OR subtract 2d4 from the roll; resets every time you roll initiative or after any rest. "S" tier. Amazing. As a DM, I kind of hate it because failures make the story more fun, but having this once per combat is going to be clutch so often.

This is great, almost every challenge will have a d20 test being made for or against the party. You can use it for a social challenge and it recharges for a combat, but not vice-versa. Still, so applicable. "S".

Fortitude: add 40 to you hit points, and, once per turn, whenever you regain hit points for any reason, add your constitution bonus to the healing. "C" tier. Basically the toughness feat with a little kicker added on. As epic boons go, doesn't feel that epic.

HPs can be important in a variety of challenges, and increasing in- and out-of combat healing should be generally useful. For those with lower HD sizes this is better, say up to +25% HPs. Still, "C" for those with a good CON mod, lower otherwise.

Irresistible Offence: your bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing attacks ignore resistance, and when you roll a 20 to hit with an attack (not when you score a critical), add damage equal to the ability SCORE raised by this boon. Maybe "C" tier? With the current rules, it's "D-C" tier. That damage bonus seems huge, but it's really not - basically, it adds 1 damage on average to each attack, so the more attacks (or rolls with advantage) the better. But IF magical weapons no longer allow you to ignore resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing attacks and that resistance remains relatively common, then this might get up to a "B" tier for...well, for fighters and barbarians, basically. It would sure be fun when you do roll a 20, though!

Combat only, and not nearly as nice as Combat Prowess, so "D".

Night Spirit: when in dim light or darkness, can give yourself the invisible condition as a bonus action, ending when you take any action, bonus action, or reaction, and you have resistance to anything but radiant or psychic damage. "C-A" tier, depending on character build. Okay on any character, but it is not hard to see how you could create some pretty strong builds around this boon.

This can help with a variety of challenges, but since it's self-only, at 19th if a challenge can be overcome by a single person being sneaky you probably already have that covered. The resistance can be more generally useful. As written if you're not using your bonus action in combat you can just activate this every round. "C", maybe "B".

Recovery: Two parts: (1) Last Stand: When you would be dropped to 0 hit points, you go to 1 HP instead, AND gain HP equal to half your maximum. Once per long rest. (2) Vitality: you have a pool of 10d10 and as a bonus action may roll as many of those dice as you like, healing for the total. Replenishes on a long rest. "A" tier, "S" tier for frontline combatants, unless they are already barbarians. Soooooo much better than fortitude.

As Fortitude, HPs are occasionally useful outside of combat, but not always. This provides 10d10 personal healing which will be a lot more healing that +CON per heal of Fortitude. This helps more against a single issue per day, Fortitude can help multiple times per day. Still, given the nature of challenges that eat HPs plus the better healing boost but the scaling 1/day HP recovery that doesn't leave behind those classes with more HP, this is better than Fortitude, so "B".

Skill: gain proficiency in all skills, and expertise in one. I dunno..."C" tier? At best? By this level, your party mostly has skill checks covered. Fun at an individual level, I guess. If you're not already a bard or something. Would be pretty interesting on rogues with reliable talent.

By 19th level, I think you'll probably have ways to deal with all of the common challenge skills your DM uses. Maybe this is useful for a one-shot, or for a 1-2 person party, but otherwise it's redundant. "D".

Speed: increase movement by 30 feet, can disengage as a bonus action, which also ends grapple on you. "A" tier. Grapple is going to be used so much more now, so that alone makes it a pretty awesome boon, and an extra 30' of movement is great on anyone (monks would have a base move of 90!).

Extra movement can help with some challenges, and a lot in combat. Cheap disengage can be good if you don't have other uses for your bonus actions. Still, mostly combat, "C" for those that can take advantage of it, "D" otherwise.

Spellcasting: when you cast a level 1-4 spell, roll a D4 and if your roll matches the spell level, it isn't lost. "D" tier. At this level you might succeed on this 1-2 times per combat. So it's basically like having a ring of spell storing, except it's random. Fun for gamblers, I suppose.

Spell Recall isn't quite what is written here, it spell slot used not spell level. Basically it's a 25% chance to not expend a slot level 1-4. For casters with a lot of reaction spells like Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Counterspell that make good and frequent use of lower level slots, this could be a big boost if they regularly run out of spells. It also can be useful for a half-caster where this will cover almost every spell they cast. Note that it is cast, not expend. So this doesn't count for things like Divine Smite.

That said, if you don't run out of spell slots, then it's worth is minimal. Maybe more psychological, allowing you to use utility spells outside of combat without as much worry.

So this is highly GM dependant. If you regularly run out of spell, having more is a godsend, "A". But show me the 19th level character thar regularly casts that many spells, I think that's super rare. If you occasionally run out of spells, this is a minor boost, "C". If you don't run out of spells, and this is likely where most 19th level characters are, then it's not worth it at all, "F".

Not a reasonable use, but an amusing one would be with a Diviner, who regains a slot 1 level lower than used when casting Divination spells. Then they have fun with divination spells levels 1-4, including (upcast) Mind Spike.

Truesight: you have truesight to 60'. "B" tier, depending on character build. Always handy, occasionally clutch.

Right on the money. "B".