ruleslawyer said:
Epic-level campaigns are much, much different when you start at epic levels than when you build PCs up from low levels. For one thing, you should establish what kind of game you and your players want. Is it a role-play intensive thing where epic levels are important because they allow for world-spanning plots and challenges? A power-gaming paradise that permits players to indulge in their wildest fantasies of blowing things up and dealing 300+ hp damage on full attacks? A geek's excuse to test the epic-level mechanics? It's important to establish which type of game is desired, because it'll dramatically influence both the kind of game that you're going to be expected to put on for your players, and the kinds of PCs they'll build.
We're looking at a powergamer setup with quite a bit of roleplaying thrown in.
Second, keep in mind that epic-level challenges are highly dependent upon PC build strength. This is even more true at epic levels than of 3e in general. A less min-maxed party will get wiped out in a bare few rounds by a challenge which would be a walkover for min-maxed PCs. Take a long, hard look at your party and decide what level you effectively consider them to be for purposes of matching CR/EL. The monsters in the ELH are particularly problematic in this regard; their CRs generally are pegged to a seriously min-maxed party. (A CR 25 monster in a book other than the ELH is extremely lacking compared to, say, a gloom.)
I try to keep challenges at or around the party's strength, but my players know that there are things out there that they can't possibly face down. They're
usually smart enough to run when that happens.
Thanks for the heads up though, I probably would have just looked at the CRs and gone form there.
Third, decide carefully what is and what isn't allowed in your game before starting character generation. There are lots of things to watch out for, including:
1) Broken rules: The spelldancer infinite loop, circle magic, simulacrum, polymorph any object, polymorphing into templated creatures (particularly paragon and pseudonatural beings), the ur-priest, and various other rules holes can be hugely problematic at epic levels. Make sure your players know what is and isn't allowed. Especially important when it comes to epic spellcasting. as written, epic spellcasting can be abused by the munchkin to develop cheap ways in which to add gigantic boosts to ability scores, AC, attacks, and weapon enhancement bonuses, and to do incredibly system-breaking things like using the Transform seed to turn into a paragon ghost beholder or force dragon. This can really ruin your day unless you rely on the simple rule contained at the beginning of the epic spells section: All epic spells must be approved by the DM.
My players are generally too lazy to devise epic spells. However, if the do, I'll be sure to keep them in check. I've already devised quite a few of my own to use against them at some point.
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2) Custom item creation. Make sure you vet all non-standard (DMG) items created by PCs or "purchased" by them during character generation. 'Nuff said.
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We're just using straight from the book gear at character creation.
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Fourth, planning adventures: Keep in mind that epic-level adventures tend to resemble
The Authority or
Justice League more than they do LotR. Teleportation, infallible divinations, instant healing, and six-second combats are ubiquitous. Plan accordingly; unless you install specific conditions that nullify teleportation and divination, the party will always be able to find and reach any place they need to (one reason why epic adventures so frequently are set on other planes). Also, death is not nearly so big a deal at these levels; as the ELH says, it's usually just a 10-minute time-out thanks to
true resurrection.
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The same holds true for high-level (16+) adventuring, so I think I'm pretty set for those angles. Of course, the advent of the epic eschew components makes death even less of a setback. My players have met true death before though, and know that its out there. They also know better than to let the last standing party member try to keep fighting.
As for the Bloodstone adventures: I think that they're a fine choice, but will obviously need to be seriously boosted to accomodate epic-level PCs. At what level did you plan to start your PCs?
21st. I'll boost some stuff up, and leave some stuff as it is. After all, not everything in that region of the world should be a match for an epic party, otherwise nothing else would be able to survive for long in the area.
H1: At these levels, the bandit army is a relatively meaningless fighting force; the real challenges are Knellict and Banak. I had my PCs capture some spies to learn the location and some minor details of the bandit camp, launch an improved invisible/mind blanked/flying stealth mission into the camp, and meet with the leaders of the army and their summoned fiends and undead in a mighty battle. Upon the PCs' victory, the bandit army was scattered to the winds, easy prey for mopping up by a PC-led militia.
I'll be running it pretty much as written, except that each battle will have some element thrown in that will prevent the party from joining too much in the wars. This will usually be comprised of some sort of foe that would obviously decimate the party's troops if it were allowed near them. All it has to do is keep the party busy for 12+ rounds of face to face combat to keep them out of 4+ rounds of warfare.
If you're using epic-level (say, 21st) PCs, the bandit army leaders need serious beefing up; one suggestion might be to use the NPCs in the "Razing of Redshore" epic adventure in Dungeon 93.
Good suggestion! I've already incorporated some elements from that adventure (the pools) into my campaign in the past. I hadn't thought of yanking the NPCs though. There was also an epic adventure about giants that could be stolen from to provide NPC material.
Also, I suggest a more Faerunian flavor to the names of NPCs and locations: Flip open the FRCS and read the names and language pages, and do a little renaming. Trust me, the very flavor of your campaign will change. Also read FR11 Dwarves Deep and apply a few details therein to the Orothiar and Hilsafar clans. I assume you have FR9 The Bloodstone Lands? If not, I'd suggest grabbing the ESD, reading it through, and applying some backwards continuity to your setting (FR9 is set immediately following the war).
My Bloodstone lands lie in Greyhawk, where the Valley of the Mage meets the larger portion of the world. H2 will be partially replaced with Valley of the Mage info, although it will mostly remain intact.
H2: This one can be run as is, although the power of all adversaries will need a SERIOUS boost to meet the PCs' power levels. Fortunately, this is an easy thing to do, given 3e's method for adding class levels to monsters.
As for Orcus arriving: Well, the entire point is that if he shows up, the PCs have lost! If they screw up, they should be spanked just as they deserve for failing to stop the summoning.
My players are no strangers to failure. If he arrives, odds are they'll flee in utter terror and an entirely different spin on the campaign will occur.
H3: Well, it's a bunch of battles. Hopefully, Malhavoc Press will have released Cry Havoc!; it may be worth purchasing simply to have workable 3e mechanics for this series of mass combats. You'll probably need higher-level NPCs on the other side to make sure the PCs have a challenge; I might include a polymorphed fiend or two (the kelvezu from MM2 makes a nice option) to even the odds.
I've updated Battlesystem rules to 3E, and will be using that conversion. I've checked out a few mass combat systems for 3E that are out there, and none of them seemed better than what I came up with. Of course, I may be biased.
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Also, the Assassin's Run is a surprisingly weak challenge, with the exception of having the Grandfather running around ; I'd drop in some high-level assassins with
rings of blinking and those nice epic poisons featured in the BoVD Epic Insights web column to shake things up a bit.
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I'm debating removing the "Dread Pirate Roberts" stuff about a new Grandfather being appointed when the old one dies. It'll be replace with a truly immortal Grandfather (a Gloom). I will definitely be upgrading the Run itself as well. Things that were dangerous to 1st edition parties were that way because hit points didn't scale for crap after 9th level. Nowadays you can throw 10d6 save for half traps at high level parties with little fear of killing them outright.
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H4: This module needs to be seriously retooled, as U_K suggested. Most elements aren't actually that bad; upgrade Arctigis to a great white wyrm, Zhengyi can probably stay at 30th level, and Klavikus needs to be very substantially advanced. Some of the random encounters could be upgraded; the higher-CR undead from MM2 or FF are potentially OK choices, given that Orcus is involved.
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I also like to throw in random things from non Core books. In other words, everything I run tends to get upgraded, or at least changed.
I'm also hoping that the new MM will provide a decent upgrade for demons in general.
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I'd also skip the silly St. Sollars crap and force the PCs to use their magic (and brains!) to figure out where they need to go. As for the actual mission: Well, they should be able to use a
plane shift or similar spell to reach Orcus's layer directly, or a
find the path to discern the correct portal location, meaning that most of the text on other Abyssal layers is probably unnecessary.
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I may keep him around if the party doesn't manage to stay on track, but he certainly won't talk like John Wayne! Also, the point of the end of the trail is for the party to be able to step up to godhood if they want. There will have to be some bit of coaching from the gods in order to let them know they're chosen for greatness. Not too much though, because the Gods want replacements that are capable of solving problems on their own.
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As for Orcus's layer: Have the PCs sneak into the fortress, brave the traps, and grab the wand, as suggested in the module. Make it pretty clear that powerful as they are, taking on Orcus directly is tantamount to suicide. I'd assume that the removal of the wand cripples Orcus's army sufficiently that the actual destruction of the artifact isn't required. The PCs then are stuck with the Demon Prince's wand, and must decide whether to pursue its destruction or stay on the run, forever fearful of subjecting themselves and their loved ones to Orcus's enmity. (A great epic-level plot hook if I ever heard one!) Hand-walking them to Tiamat's lair and having them kill her (sheesh!) is just too silly, IMHO. [/B][/QUOTE]
My players don't generally have loved ones. Although I've never used them against them, only as plot hooks, they still seem to think that I'd happily kill off their families for fun and profit. They're also terrified of Wishes, even though they've only tried two in my game. Of the two (both from an evil Efreet) one was twisted because it was greedy, and the other was granted because it furthered the Efreet's goals. I think they're still gunshy from their last DM though. He was the kind of DM who made you play monks all the time, because if you started with any kind of gear it'd be destroyed by the end of the first adventure. I once made a character in his Vampire campaign that put a lot of starting resources into wealth. Before I knew what had happened, most of it had been destroyed.
Thanks for the input folks! Keep it coming!
