Epic Feats, not Epic Feats

[Crothian]

THere are some Epic feats that I'm considering not making Epic. I'm not changing the prerequites on any of them, so many will be very hard to get because of attribute or feats as prerequites. Here's the list I have so far

Bonus Domain, Combat Archery, Epic Endurance, Excceptional Deflection, Improved Arrow of Death, Improved Aura of Courage, Improved Aura of Dispair, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Death Attack, Improved Ki Strike, Improved Stunning fist, Infinite Deflections, Instant Reload, Overwhelming Critical, Perfect Health, Planar Turning, Polyglot, Spellcasting Harrier, Widen Aura of Courage, Widen Aura of Dispair.

Thoughts?

 

[GuardianLurker]

Bonus Domain,
Combat Archery,
Epic Endurance,
Improved Stunning fist,
Spellcasting Harrier,
Overwhelming Critical

From what I remember of these feats, I don't think there'd be much of a problem, as I believe they'd all still be high-level feats.


Exceptional Deflection,
Improved Combat Reflexes,
Infinite Deflections,
Instant Reload,
Perfect Health,
Planar Turning,
Polyglot

These however, I'm less sanguine about. While there's not really any mechanical reason to keep these epic-only, flavor-wise I believe they're much better suited to the epic-levels.


Improved Arrow of Death,
Improved Aura of Courage,
Improved Aura of Dispair,
Improved Death Attack,
Improved Ki Strike,
Widen Aura of Courage,
Widen Aura of Dispair

These feats, however, are essential parts of a number of PrCs' epic progressions, and it's probably best to keep them epic.

 

[Crothian]

Re: Re: Epic Feats, not Epic Feats

Exceptional Deflection,
Improved Combat Reflexes,
Infinite Deflections,
Instant Reload,
Perfect Health,
Planar Turning,
Polyglot

These however, I'm less sanguine about. While there's not really any mechanical reason to keep these epic-only, flavor-wise I believe they're much better suited to the epic-levels.

Many of these are amazing in their potential, but in realality, they aren't that useful. Sure, having unlimited AoO in a round is great, but to get that you'll already be getting 6 per round. I've never seen a person get even 6 in a round. Instand Reload I included to make Crossbows more useful at a lower level. That is really the only one on this list that I think is not iffy.

Improved Arrow of Death,
Improved Aura of Courage,
Improved Aura of Dispair,
Improved Death Attack,
Improved Ki Strike,
Widen Aura of Courage,
Widen Aura of Dispair

These feats, however, are essential parts of a number of PrCs' epic progressions, and it's probably best to keep them epic.

The reason I included these is to allow the people who go a certain prestige class route to get some of their powers a little better a little sooner. Like Improved Ki Strike. THis can't be taken till a monk is 16th level, which means the feat can't be gained till 18th level. A lot of these are class specific and I think there should be class specific feats that are not epic level.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Re: Re: Re: Epic Feats, not Epic Feats

The reason I included these is to allow the people who go a certain prestige class route to get some of their powers a little better a little sooner. Like Improved Ki Strike. THis can't be taken till a monk is 16th level, which means the feat can't be gained till 18th level. A lot of these are class specific and I think there should be class specific feats that are not epic level.

Hmm. I understand what you're saying. However, I'd be leary of "demoting" an epic feat until a class has finished its non-epic progression.

Improved Ki Strike is an example - at 18th level, a Monk still has non-epic abilities to gain ..

From the SRD:
16 +12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +10 Ki strike (+3)
17 +12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +10 Timeless body,
Tongue of the sun and moon
18 +13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +11 Slow fall (any distance)
19 +14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +11 Empty body
20 +15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +12 Perfect self

In this particular case, I'd argue against it. Especially since (if you follow the progression) the next increment for Ki Strike would be 19th.

However, your case is stronger for the PrCs, since you can finish the class's non-epic progression, and still be short of the epic mark. A blackguard, for instance, will probably be 16th or 17th level when he finishes his non-epic progression. Here, he's stuck essentially "marking time" until he hits epic levels to continue progression. However, I think a better solution would probably to make the Epic Blackguard PrC available early, rather than just demoting a few of its feats. (In fact, the ELH discusses doing exactly this, IIRC.)

OTOH, those last few "filler" levels can also be used to explore aspects of the character that haven't gotten spotlighted. The Blackguard might pick up a few levels of Cleric, Rogue, or Assassin.

Aside: I interested in your opinion of my additional proposed limitations for the Improve Spellcasting Ability feat...

 

[Crothian]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Epic Feats, not Epic Feats

Hmm. I understand what you're saying. However, I'd be leary of "demoting" an epic feat until a class has finished its non-epic progression.

Improved Ki Strike is an example - at 18th level, a Monk still has non-epic abilities to gain ..


In this particular case, I'd argue against it. Especially since (if you follow the progression) the next increment for Ki Strike would be 19th.

That's a very good point. I'll have to take a few off the list because of that.

However, your case is stronger for the PrCs, since you can finish the class's non-epic progression, and still be short of the epic mark. A blackguard, for instance, will probably be 16th or 17th level when he finishes his non-epic progression. Here, he's stuck essentially "marking time" until he hits epic levels to continue progression. However, I think a better solution would probably to make the Epic Blackguard PrC available early, rather than just demoting a few of its feats. (In fact, the ELH discusses doing exactly this, IIRC.)

OTOH, those last few "filler" levels can also be used to explore aspects of the character that haven't gotten spotlighted. The Blackguard might pick up a few levels of Cleric, Rogue, or Assassin.

Aside: I interested in your opinion of my additional proposed limitations for the Improve Spellcasting Ability feat...

There are many options when a character finishes a PrCl. However, I think allowing the feats after they reach level 10 in them, but before Character level 20 is an okay idea. The character can take some of these demoted epic feats while they pick up a few levels in another class. I think taking a PrCl the full ten levels is a big dedication of character levels. Since they can't progress until character level 21+, I think allowing them to pick up a feat before they become epic is okay.

Where the heck is that Improved Spellcasting Ability feat thread? I went looking for it but I must just be missing it. Argh!!

EDIT: Found It!

 

[GuardianLurker]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Epic Feats, not Epic Feats

I think taking a PrCl the full ten levels is a big dedication of character levels. Since they can't progress until character level 21+, I think allowing them to pick up a feat before they become epic is okay.

I agree with you on the dedication. However, (NHMBIFOM) I didn't think the epic progressions for the PrCs had additional prereq of "Must be character level 21+". That's certainly the default option, I just can't remember if its a requirement. And I still worry that offering the bits before the Epic PrC is gained will detract from the "punch" of the epic progression.

Aside: BTW, good input on the ISA thread. Thanks.

 

[Crothian]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Epic Feats, not Epic Feats

I agree with you on the dedication. However, (NHMBIFOM) I didn't think the epic progressions for the PrCs had additional prereq of "Must be character level 21+". That's certainly the default option, I just can't remember if its a requirement. And I still worry that offering the bits before the Epic PrC is gained will detract from the "punch" of the epic progression.

Aha. See, I'm looking at it as blurring the Epic line. THe idea of suddenly gaining all this power at a certain point seems a little silly. I like the gradual climb in power. So, by allowing a little of this epic power to be gained from levels 15-20 helps make the sudden increase seem less.

Aside: BTW, good input on the ISA thread. Thanks.

I try. I'm happy to know I can help.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Epic PrC progression before 21

Well, I just checked my copy of the ELH, and I didn't see *any* requirements that would prohibit continuing into the Epic Progression for a PrC.

You need to have topped it out (it must be a 10th level Oozemaster), but you can continue blithely on prior to 21. Now, you won't be able to grab a lot of those nifty epic feats (because you won't meet the prereqs), but if you want to be a Paladin 6/Blackguard 12 at 18th character level, it looks like it's perfectly legal.

Which neatly solves the problems posed by the last grouping, no?

 

[Crothian]

I love it when a plan comes together.