Epic Feats

[ConcreteBuddha]

Ya can't get Epic Feats as a class ability until level 21+ in the class. Why?

Just to irritate all Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Rogues.


It's fun watching a munchkin squirm as they realize that Joe Blow, the level 21 Dwarf Fighter is more effective than they are. Neat.

 

[Marshall]

Right. It also makes some classes infinitely more attractive than others - a level of fighter suddenly becomes far better than a level of any other class, because you can go immediately to the epic abilities without messing around for 20 levels.

A Wiz20/Monk1 doesn't start getting the monk's epic level abilities right away - they have to go through 19 more levels of monk first. Similarly, a Wiz20/Ftr1 shouldn't be able to grab epic fighter feats right off the bat (except with his character-level feats, of course).

J

Uh, No.

At less than Epic levels a lvl of FTR gives you +1 BAB, good Fort save, 1 Feat, d10HD, and 2+INT skills.

At Epic levels a lvl of FTR gives you a chance to take an Epic feat, d10HD, and 2+INT skills.

Hmm, looks like a better deal at non-epic levels.

The same goes for Monk, or any other class, you lose a lot by waiting til epic level to MC. The availability of Epic feats doesnt really match it.

 

[toberane]

Ya can't get Epic Feats as a class ability until level 21+ in the class. Why?

Just to irritate all Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Rogues.


It's fun watching a munchkin squirm as they realize that Joe Blow, the level 21 Dwarf Fighter is more effective than they are. Neat.

In my opinion, this means your Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Rogue isn't playing his class correctly.

I think what it boils down to is that multiclass characters can be as effective in combat as their single-classed counterparts, it just isn't as easy. It is easier to play a straight fighter 21 than it is to play a Barbarian 5/ Fighter 6/ Ranger 5/ Rogue 5. This multiclassed character in your example should have almost equal hit point to the straight fighter, the ability to rage 2x per day, a faster movement, ability to keep their dex bonus even when flat-footed, can't be flanked, Sneak attack damage of +3d6, four attacks per round, two weapon fighting and ambidexterity. Their BAB is +18 (+19 if you add in the Epic Attack Bonus for hitting level 21) which is only two lower than their straight fighter friend. Plus, if they are smart, they took some ranks in tumble to allow them to easily pick their positions without risking attacks of opportunity.

Sounds pretty potent. I'm not sure a 21st level fighter with a couple of epic feats any more effective at all than this multiclassed character with one epic feat.

 

[mikebr99]

Just to add to the confusion...

Here are 4 feats that have no prereq's at all for the 20th level Wizard/1st level fighter to take with his bonus fighter feat as per the current rules.

Armor Skin [Epic]
Your skin becomes like armor.
Benefit: You gain a +2 natural armor bonus to armor class, or your existing natural armor bonus increases by 2. This feat does not stack with any natural armor bonus granted by magic items or non-permanent magical effects.
Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

Epic Prowess [Epic]
You gain great skill in combat.
Benefit: Gain a +1 bonus to all attacks.
Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

Epic Toughness [Epic]
You are preternaturally tough.
Benefit: You gain +20 hit points.
Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

Penetrate Damage Reduction [Epic]
You can bypass a creature’s damage reduction.
Benefit: Your attacks are made as if with an additional +2 bonus to their standard enhancement bonus. For instance, when attacking a creature with damage reduction 35/+7, you would only need a +5 weapon to bypass the damage reduction. This feat does not actually confer an enhancement bonus; it only emulates one for the purpose of penetrating an opponent’s damage reduction. The bonus conferred by Penetrate Reduction stacks with the bonus conferred by Ki Strike.

Some pretty good skills there for the lowest fighting ability possible...

 

[toberane]

Some pretty good skills there for the lowest fighting ability possible...

And you have to be a minimum of 21st character level to be able to take any of them. and with feats every 3rd level, plus bonus feats at 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, etc. It wouldn't be very long before you have to turn to the feats with the non-epic prerequisites, and then where will you be?

Right where the equal level straight fighter was, having to do the grunt work to get to the good stuff.

 

[mikebr99]

And you have to be a minimum of 21st character level to be able to take any of them. and with feats every 3rd level, plus bonus feats at 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, etc. It wouldn't be very long before you have to turn to the feats with the non-epic prerequisites, and then where will you be?

Right where the equal level straight fighter was, having to do the grunt work to get to the good stuff.

Or you could just take the top three of the four I posted... over and over again... gaining another 20 hit points every other level seems like a great benefit for some non-epic fighter levels.

 

[Crothian]

Right where the equal level straight fighter was, having to do the grunt work to get to the good stuff.

Except your Fort save is worse. You have on the average 60 less HP, and spells. Oh, and that pesky BAB that is ten worse. The Fighter has lots more fighter feats. Perhaps not the epic ones, but some really good ones. The fighter going to epic is still going to be a better fighter.

 

[toberane]

Or you could just take the top three of the four I posted... over and over again... gaining another 20 hit points every other level seems like a great benefit for some non-epic fighter levels.

If you want to do that, fine. You'll have a really one-dimensional and not-versatile character, and it would be really boring, but there are always ways to exploit the rules at the expense of character and role-playing. Maybe part of the reason I don't have a problem with the way the book is written is because I'm not in the least bit concerned that anyone I play with might do this.

 

[toberane]

Except your Fort save is worse. You have on the average 60 less HP, and spells. Oh, and that pesky BAB that is ten worse. The Fighter has lots more fighter feats. Perhaps not the epic ones, but some really good ones. The fighter going to epic is still going to be a better fighter.

Which is the way it should be. As I said before, either in this thread or another one, If you multiclass, you will make trade-offs. One trade-off is not necessarily better than another if you play your character right. But any 21st level fighter should be a better fighter than a multiclass character with just a level or two in fighter. And he will probably dominate in melee combat until the muklticlass character starts using his skills from the other classes, and then you'll see a lot more even fight.

 

[mikebr99]

Maybe part of the reason I don't have a problem with the way the book is written is because I'm not in the least bit concerned that anyone I play with might do this.

Because you and your players (secretly) agree that it is wrong, and shouldn't be allowed.

I would think that It would be a great idea for a 21st level character (20th Wizard/1st Fighter) to take Epic Spellcasting with his character level bonus feat, and epic toughness with his 1st level fighter bonus feat.