Epic Fight turns into Epic Farce

[BryonD]

Not much of a solution.

I think you missed the part where he said:

I don't think that's a problem.

You really don't need a solution when there isn't a problem.

4E threw out the baby with the bath water often enough, but then there are cases like this where the baby was tossed out under the misconception that there was any bathwater in the first place.

The attitude you are describing is boggling removed from anything remotely like a "here is the world and the challenges it represents, go overcome" attitude that makes RPGs awesome to me that I can't even think of a reason to waste time playing something that prioritizes things that way.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

2d4, average = 5 rounds, which I'm told is the average length on an encounter in 3E. So you will generally miss the encounter completely.

Not to mention that you have to spend the same amount of time running back, unless there was a convenient corner for you to cower in.

 

[Bullgrit]

Wow, I suck at communications. Not a single person responded to my actual point.

My point:
Some monsters have abilities that have an effectively infinite area of effect. (Infinite for most D&D encounters, anyway.) For examples: shadow mastiffs and harpies. When this infinite AoE is combined with an effect that in some way completely neutralizes the victims, an encounter can turn very bad, because there is a chance that *every* character will fail the save and be neutralized.

Not my point:
I was not complaining about having my character panicked. I've had worse happen to my character in this adventure -- webbed and paralyzed for a total of about 20 rounds in 4 fights.

I was not complaining about rolling a 1. That kind of thing happens all the time to me. The more cinematic the situation, the more likely I am to roll a 1. I'm used to it.

I was not complaining that the encounter wasn't fun. It was great fun, and will talk about it for years. I told the DM I had great fun "despite the strangeness that we all failed our saves."

I only mentioned the E6 aspect so it was understood why an epic-in-feel fight would include a couple of CR5 creatures with a DC13 power. In a setting where 6th level is epic level, a couple of CR5 beasties are awesome terrors.

E6 (as we're playing it -- "pure and simple"): Max level is 6. Every 5,000xp above reaching 6th level, the character gains a feat. -- The epic, terrible undead monstrosity we are against is a modified morhg. In this campaign, this creature is nigh a demi-god. Without being the DM, I'd guess it's around CR10 -- mid-range for regular 20-level D&D, but epic for E6.

Bullgrit

 

[Fifth Element]

You really don't need a solution when there isn't a problem.

If a sufficient number of customers consider it a problem, then for WotC it's a problem.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Has anyone else found this to be a problem (probably not often, but even once can completely screw up a campaign -- it's a route to TPK)? Does 4th edition "fix" this? If so, how?

Very much so. My last campaign ended in a TPK caused by an umber hulk's confusion gaze. All these "save or you're out the game for 20 mins" effects suck big ones imo. I particularly dislike mind flayers' psychic blast and would've majorly nerfed it if I hadn't moved to 4e. Save or incapacitated is almost worse than Save or Die. At least when you know you're dead you can start rolling up a new PC. The thing is people have set aside their time and travelled, maybe a long way, to play in the game. To say "sorry you're out the game" for a major period of time is actually kind of rude.

Yes 4e fixes the problem. Effects mostly last for 1 round, not 3d4. They seldom take a PC out the game and even if they do there is a saving throw every round so the player still has a horse in the race. There are a few incapacitating or even SoD effects but the player has to fail several 50/50 shots in a row, and not get any help from his friends so it's less likely and more importantly, more tactically interesting than previous editions.

 

[Nifft]

Wow, I suck at communications. Not a single person responded to my actual point.

My point:
Some monsters have abilities that have an effectively infinite area of effect. (Infinite for most D&D encounters, anyway.) For examples: shadow mastiffs and harpies. When this infinite AoE is combined with an effect that in some way completely neutralizes the victims, an encounter can turn very bad, because there is a chance that *every* character will fail the save and be neutralized.

Er, yes we did.

Every character can't be neutralized if you eliminate the "neutralized" condition. 4e still has area effects, but they can't neutralize your whole party for more than a single round.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Delta]

We hear the baying of hounds and the laughter of a terrible undead creature from down the hall...

Well, now you know why he's laughing.

For me, this is why I play the game instead of just writing stories. That encounter is surprising and novel and not something I've seen in a fantasy story. I personally like it more than the "same old thing".

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Wow, I suck at communications. Not a single person responded to my actual point.

My point:
Some monsters have abilities that have an effectively infinite area of effect. (Infinite for most D&D encounters, anyway.) For examples: shadow mastiffs and harpies. When this infinite AoE is combined with an effect that in some way completely neutralizes the victims, an encounter can turn very bad, because there is a chance that *every* character will fail the save and be neutralized.

Infinite AoE doesn't exist, if I am not entirely mistaken. But large AoE does - a 10 square radius burst would cover an area of 105 x 105 ft. But most of the effects are not as strong as they would be in 3E -
daze still allows you to act (one standard action per round). If you're immobilized, you can still attack and suffer no penalties aside from being unable to move.

I don't think there are AoE stun effects, though Sleep is close - you are dazed first, and if you fail your first save (save => d20 vs DC 10), you drop unconscious. Generally, the goal in 4E was to avoid people sitting around and being unable to do anything (though if you're dying, stunned or unconscious, the only things you get to do are probably saves - not really something active).

We had an encounter in our Savage Tides campaign (ported to 4E) where we were in a very similar position - 3 PCs vs 3 enemies (Korkus) that could dominate (save ends, aftereffect: daze) and an assortment of minions (Lizardfolk?) and "support" (a Far Voice Destrachan). The first few rounds had us failing our saves and the enemies closing in on us. But still, we managed to survive the one-sided start - though certainly partially thanks to the help of a fourth PC entering the battle - a Warlock. (The player was late).

 

[tomBitonti]

Well, a proper read of "infinite radius" is "radius large enough to encompass all party members".

There is definitely a problem with certain effects (fear and charm) where the effect is too strong. (Or, cannot be overcome without extraordinary measures, such as casting remove fear.) IMO fear and charm (from a Harpy) are too strong because they last too long and are too hard to overcome.

This is compounded when there are a lot of the creatures causing the effect, and each causing a saving throw. Because of this, harpies do not scale up as you add more of them: The chance of a player failing a saving throw gets to be too high. Because of this issue, I simply do not use large packs of harpies, or apply the rules as written (depending on my mood).

A fix (IMO) would be to allow a player a chance to restrain or block their affected other party member, and to use a non-magical action (slap in the face, intimidation check, &etc) to break the effect. A second part of a fix is to not have multiple saves, but to increase the save by a set amount when there are multiple opponents. So a pack of harpies could add +2 to the DC of the charm saving throw instead of having a separate saving throw for each.

 

[cangrejoide]

Well at least you guys got feared and had enough time to run back and fight. On the 'Epic' battle of my last Shackled city game under 3.5 , the last boss took half the party on the first round with a save or suck ability, and then just ran after the other half killing each one by one. It was pretty pathetic and somewhat comedic. We stopped playing 3.5 inmediately after that.

Now years later we just started with 4E, hoping epic levels dont just 'save or suck' our fun.