Epic/Immortal Prestige Classes

paradox42

First Post
Both of those are very intriguing concepts ! Did you ever try to create a set of abilities for those classes, any "rough sketches" ?? I am asking about this because I'm going to try making something out of those two and to be honest, I'm at a little loss about the mechanical part here...:-S
Necrolater should be fairly easy for the death-avoidance thing. Just give them an ability to self-resurrect, either using their own Contingent Resurrection (Epic) SLA, or something like the Chronomancer I came up with for my homebrew game. I'll copy the ability in question below for reference:

My Crazy Game said:
Sidestep Death (Su): Perhaps the most glaring example of the power Chronomancers possess is the cavalier, nonchalant manner in which they travel through time; one example of this trivial use of time travel is the History Erasure ability described above, but the Sidestep Death ability is a more blatant interference by the character into his or her own timestream. This ability triggers whenever the character is killed by something. On the same round as the death occurs, a future version of the Chronomancer (with full normal hit points and spell slots) arrives at the time and place of death, to finish whatever problem the character was trying to solve when killed- in effect, the Chronomancer receives an instantaneous, non-counterable True Resurrection. Later, the character's future version purchases a casting of the actual True Resurrection spell (costing at least 25000 gp in materials, plus whatever additional payment the caster demands) to bring the earlier (dead) self back to life, and upon resurrection the earlier self travels back to the moment of his or her own death to complete the circle. Thus, high-level Chronomancers are exceedingly difficult to kill, as they get help from their own future selves whenever it is needed.

The only limitation on this ability is that no more than one such personal time-loop may exist over any 24-hour (subjective) period of the character's existence, and the ability may not be used again until the True Resurrection spell has been paid for and cast- but as Chronomancers become more comfortable with creating personal time-loops, they become able to weave multiple such loops together simultaneously. At every 5th level past 5th, the Chronomancer gains an additional daily use of this ability. Thus, a 10th-level Chronomancer has 2 daily uses, a 15th-level Chronomancer has 3, and so on. What happens in the case of multiple triggerings of this ability in a single "day" is that the character can spontaneously self-resurrect (bringing future selves into the past to continue the fight) more than once before actually paying for the spells to bring the past versions back, though as before, the spells must eventually be paid for and cast to close the time-loops before uses of this ability are recharged.
For the record, the Chronomancer in this case is an Epic prestige class designed for entry around 27th level at the earliest, so you wouldn't see any character with that ability before 32nd level using my PrC. But that's my game- as they say here on the Internet, YMMV.
 

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Kerrick

First Post
Having the ability cost 25K each time is a bit much, don't you think? Granted, I don't know what kind of game you play, but wouldn't basing it off resurrection instead of true res make it a bit more balanced? I mean, anyone can buy a contingent resurrection spell, and resurrection does everything true res does, except that true res doesn't require a body - and since it's working on the Chronomancer (effectively, range of "Self") that requirement is waived.
 

paradox42

First Post
Having the ability cost 25K each time is a bit much, don't you think? Granted, I don't know what kind of game you play, but wouldn't basing it off resurrection instead of true res make it a bit more balanced? I mean, anyone can buy a contingent resurrection spell, and resurrection does everything true res does, except that true res doesn't require a body - and since it's working on the Chronomancer (effectively, range of "Self") that requirement is waived.
Resurrection also costs levels- True Res doesn't. Also, the idea here is that the Chrono isn't actually casting it himself; he's just using time travel to go back and save the body so somebody else can do it later. If the Chrono can actually cast True Res himself, then yay him, go to town- he doesn't even need to use this ability in that case.

Anyway, nobody in my game even took enough Chronomancer levels to get this ability until every PC was a god, so balance never got tested. These days, my game runs much higher than the levels where this would really matter. Face it: what "cost" is a mere 25,000 gp to a being who can use 20 or more Wishes per day, essentially at will? Materials costs also become sort of irrelevant to beings who can leave the planet they're currently dealing with to go off into the local asteroid belt and find a nice chunk of rocks & minerals to dismantle for materials (something my higher-ECL party has done many times).

Anyway, I was just presenting the ability as an example of the sort of ability to base the Necrolater on, something allowing them to spontaneously (for game purposes, at least) come back from the dead.
 

Hey guys! :)

Apologies for the absence over the past few days, some real world stuff getting in the way (work's Xmas dinner yesterday for example).

Erevanden said:
Both of those are very intriguing concepts ! Did you ever try to create a set of abilities for those classes, any "rough sketches" ?? I am asking about this because I'm going to try making something out of those two and to be honest, I'm at a little loss about the mechanical part here...:-S

If I have they are lost in the mists of time (or the deluge of papaerwork here).

A demagogue worships itself, while a Necrolater worships dead gods.

I still like the idea that the Demagogue would become less powerful the more it is injured (sort of like losing faith in itself weakens it).
 

Kerrick

First Post
Resurrection also costs levels- True Res doesn't.
Ah, yeah, missed that. :)

Also, the idea here is that the Chrono isn't actually casting it himself; he's just using time travel to go back and save the body so somebody else can do it later.
Right, I got that part. Since true res has a ridiculously long time limit, you can get away with that. Time paradoxes make my brain hurt. :(

Anyway, nobody in my game even took enough Chronomancer levels to get this ability until every PC was a god, so balance never got tested. These days, my game runs much higher than the levels where this would really matter. Face it: what "cost" is a mere 25,000 gp to a being who can use 20 or more Wishes per day, essentially at will?
True 'nuff.

Materials costs also become sort of irrelevant to beings who can leave the planet they're currently dealing with to go off into the local asteroid belt and find a nice chunk of rocks & minerals to dismantle for materials (something my higher-ECL party has done many times).
... Wow. That gives me some sort of idea of the kind of game you're playing. :)

Anyway, I was just presenting the ability as an example of the sort of ability to base the Necrolater on, something allowing them to spontaneously (for game purposes, at least) come back from the dead.
Yeah, that's cool. I didn't mean to sound like I was bashing it or anything. Doesn't one of the 4E epic destinies have an ability like that too? The wizard, maybe? I remember seeing something like that, that effectively makes the PC immortal.
 

Kerrick

First Post
Well, it's only two months or so after I promised this, but I finally got it done. I was on a roll today - 8 hours or so of inspired game design. I happened to see this thing sitting on my hard drive, and I decided to take a look, then I just burned through it in about an hour and a half. Here's the result.


Maleficus Lamnia

The Maleficus Lamniae (Dark Blades) are a sect of necromancers who have turned their skills to the assassin's arts. They use negative energy to steal abilities and even life energy from their victims before they kill them, leaving them as drained, lifeless husks.

Many Lamniae are undead - vampires, sorcerer-wights, or even liches - but many are living beings specialized in the arts of magic, thievery, and/or assassination. They steal abilities from random targets or their victims in order to complete a mission - oftentimes this consists of taking the victim's place in order to get closer to someone or something else.

Lamniae are almost always experienced rogues and/or Assassins, along with being accomplished clerics or (more often) mages. Many have levels in Shadowdancer to increase their stealth abilities as well.

Hit Die: d6.

Requirements
Alignment: Any evil
Skills: Disguise 12 ranks, Stealth 15 ranks, Spellcraft 15 ranks
Spells: Ability to cast 5th level arcane or divine Necromancy spells.
Special: ???

Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills)(Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points Per Level: 6 + Int modifier

BAB: poor
Fort low, Ref/Will high

1st: Steal memories
2nd: Steal physical attributes, +1 level of existing spellcasting class
3rd: Death attack
4th: Steal skills, +1 level of existing spellcasting class
5th: Steal mental attributes
6th: Necromantic death attack, +1 level of existing spellcasting class
7th: Steal supernatural ability
8th: Steal health, +1 level of existing spellcasting class
9th: Vampiric death attack
10th: Steal arcane knowledge, +1 level of existing spellcasting class

Class Features

Steal (Su): Once per round as a free action, a Maleficus Lamnia can absorb abilities or attributes from a living being. In order to do so, she must touch the victim (this may require an attack roll); she then gains the chosen ability or attribute. The victim doesn't notice the loss, if applicable, for 1d4 rounds, which enables the Lamnia to escape. The Lamnia can steal multiple abilities from the same target, though each such theft requires a separate touch. All stolen abilities, except for attributes (see below), remain for 24 hours, until the Maleficus Lamnia is rendered unconscious, or until she steals new abilities to replace the old ones. The victim can make a Will save (DC 10 + the Lamnia's class level + Lamnia's Cha modifier) to resist the theft. The Lamnia can also voluntarily "give up" a stolen ability; this requires a standard action and is a simple act of will.

If a Lamnia is subject to another Lamnia's Steal ability, the second Lamnia cannot steal any stolen abilities. For example, if Kessa stole a victim's Con score and used it in place of her own, and then Merrick stole her Con score, he would get her original score, not her altered one. The ability damage applies to her altered score, though, and remains when she regains her original score (which could reduce it to 0).

The Maleficus Lamnia can steal any of the following, but is limited to only one of each at a time.

Memories: The Lamnia can steal a memory of an event of up to 10 minutes in length, knowledge relating to a specific item/event/person/etc., command words or passwords, or just about anything else the victim knows (besides spells). Unless the Lamnia is looking for something in specific, she gains a random memory, which grants a +4 bonus on one Knowledge skill in which the victim possesses ranks, or a +2 bonus to Disguise checks when impersonating that victim. Unlike the other Steal abilities, a Lamnia can take more than one memory and can even search for specific memories or knowledge, but in-depth searching requires constant contact and a minute or more to find anything in particular (information that the victim would normally keep secret or hidden is generally harder to find; a rule of thumb is that general knowledge requires 1d6 rounds, specific knowledge requires 5d4 rounds, and hidden knowledge requires 2d4 minutes or more).

Physical Attributes: The Maleficus Lamnia can absorb a victim's Strength, Con, or Dex scores and use either her own or the victim's. This can take one of two forms: either she "borrows" the victim's score and uses it in place of her own, or she actively steals ability points from the victim and uses them to augment her own. In the first case, the victim suffers 2 points of damage to the chosen ability, but the Lamnia gains the ability score for only 1 hour; in the latter, the victim is drained of up to 1 point per two class levels, which the Lamnia adds to her own score for 24 hours. If the victim's ability score(s) is/are reduced to 0, the victim suffers the normal effects of such (paralysis or death, as applicable). A borrowed ability score cannot be more than (class level + 3) points higher than her own; if it is higher, her score is increased to the maximum only.

For example: Lydia the 3rd-level Lamnia chooses to borrow the victim's Strength (18 vs. her 13); she touches him, deals 2 points of Strength damage, and now has an effective score of 18 for the next hour. If his score were 20 or higher, she could only increase her score to 19 (13 + 3 + 3).

Skills: As with physical attributes, the Lamnia can either "borrow" a victim's skill score, in which case he suffers a -4 penalty to that skill and she can use his score in place of her own for 1 hour, or she actively drains 2 points per class level from the victim, using it to augment her own ability for a full 24 hours. If the skill is not already a class skill for her, it is treated as a class skill as long as the points remain viable.

Mental Attributes: The Lamnia can absorb a victim's Int, Wis, or Charisma scores and use either her own or the victim's. This is otherwise identical to stealing physical attributes (see above). Increases in mental stat scores do not grant more spells per day.

Supernatural Ability: The Lamnia can absorb one supernatural ability of the victim's. This is an active theft - victim loses the use of that ability while the Lamnia has it; the DC for the ability is 10 + 1/2 the Lamnia's class level + whichever stat modifier applies to the original ability (usually Cha).

Health: The Lamnia can borrow health from her victim, which deals nonlethal damage to him and grants her temporary hit points, or she can actively absorb health from her victim, which is identical to the vampiric touch spell - it deals lethal damage, and she gains them as healing. In either case, she can steal up to 1d4 hit points per class level, which are automatically added to her own. Any hit points in excess of her maximum are temporary hit points; she can have up 150% of her maximum total, and all excess is lost. A victim drained to 0 hit points falls unconscious and cannot be drained again; if she absorbs health and drains her victim from 1 or more hit points to below -10 with one touch, though, he is killed, reduced to a drained husk.

Arcane Knowledge: The Lamnia can absorb any arcane or divine spells or spell-like abilities the subject knows or has prepared, which she gains as spell-like abilities once per day (no matter how often the victim could use them). A quick touch gains a randomly chosen spell; if the Lamnia spends time searching, she can choose which spell(s) or abilities to steal. She must be high enough level and have a high enough ability score to cast the spell or use the spell-like ability in question. She can absorb divine spells if she is an arcane spellcaster (and vice versa) and still be able to use them, but she suffers a 25% chance (-2% per point of the spellcasting bonus used to cast spells of that type) of spell failure. For example, Lydia (a wizard) steals a divine spell from a cleric; her Wisdom score is only 13, so she has a 23% chance of failure when attempting to cast that spell. She cannot scribe the spell into a scroll or spellbook, but she can use it to craft magical items.

Death Attack (Ex): This is identical to the Assassin ability. If the Lamnia already has death attack from another class, the DC for this ability is increased by +2.

Necromantic Death Attack (Su): The Lamnia can use a ranged touch necromantic spell, like enervation, to deal the death attack. The target makes a single save vs. the death attack's DC; if it succeeds, he avoids both the death attack's effects and those of the spell, while failure subjects him to both effects.

Vampiric Death Attack (Su): When making a death attack (not a necromantic one), the Lamnia can choose to employ any of her Steal abilities in place of the death or paralysis effects. The victim makes a save as normal; a success means he resists the theft, but he still takes damage from the sneak attack.
 
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Hey Kerrick mate! :)

Just wanted to say very cool Prestige Class.

If I had one criticism it would be that some of the abilities could be a bit tricky to work out on the fly but I suppose they are only getting used once per day anyhow, so its a minor point.
 

Kerrick

First Post
Thanks. I'm sure it needs a little work... I hacked it together in a few hours. I'll take a look over it and clean it up a bit.

Edit: The abilities are usable 1/round, not 1/day. :) I made a few rules clarifications and added some stuff for better adjudication.
 
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Real Sorceror

First Post
Heres a pretty simple class for casters modeled after the Battle Ascendant. This also assumes that there are spells of higher than 9th level.


Arcanite
Prerequisites: Arcane Caster Level +50, Spellcraft 50 Ranks, Epic Spellcasting, Enhance Spell, Intensify Spell
Special: The character must not possess Divine Rank
Hit Dice: d4
Base Attack Bonus: Slow
Skill Points: 2+Intelligence Modifier
Skills: Appraise (Int), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (arcana, history, planes, religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int).
Caster Level: Full

1 Spell Mastery I
2 Automatic Metamagic (Still, Silent, Extend)
3 Spell Mastery II
4 Legendary Spellcasting
5 Spell Mastery III
6 Automatic Metamagic (Enlarge, Widen)
7 Spell Mastery IV
8 Enlightened Spellcasting
9 Spell Mastery V
10 Automatic Metamagic (Empower)
11 Spell Mastery VI
12 Divine Magician
13 Spell Mastery VII
14 Automatic Metamagic (Maximize)
15 Spell Mastery VIII
16 Imp. Legendary Spellcaster
17 Spell Mastery IX, Automatic Metamagic (Quicken)
18 Divine Magician II
19 Spell Mastery X
20 Automatic Metamagic (Intensify)


Spell Mastery: The Arcanite can now cast spells of X level at will as spell-like abilities, where X is the number on the chart above.
Automatic Metamagic: The Arcanite automatically applies the metamagic feats listed to every spell he casts without increasing the spell level, unless he chooses otherwise.
Legendary Spellcasting: All of the Arcanite’s spell saving throws improve to 10 + 1/2 class level + primary casting modifier. This later improves at 16th lvl, becoming 10 + 1/2 caster level + ability modifier).
Enlightened Spellcaster: The cap on all level dependent affects of the Arcanite’s spells is lifted and is only limited by his caster level.
Divine Magician: The Arcanite gains the Magic Portfolio even though he is not a deity. He counts as a deity of his class level when determining what portfolio powers and abilities he has access to. At 18<sup>th</sup> level the Arcanite gains the Double Magic Portfolio.
 

Kerrick

First Post
I dunno... seems a little high level. Giving spells 10 levels lower at-will is something you can do as soon as they acquire L10 spells - by that point, L1 spells aren't all that useful, and making them at-will (like cantrips) wouldn't break the game. Automatic metamagic... even at that level, it could be shaky, balancewise. I don't play that high, though, so I couldn't say for sure. Not to mention, that's a huge number of feats to add to a spell - at 20th level, you're casting stilled silent enlarged widened extended intensified quickened whatever (which is a +18 level modifier, BTW).

As for saves... I changed them to 10 + 1/2 CL + SL at all levels - it makes the high-end spells not suck so much, and keeps the low-end spells more of a challenge at all levels.
 

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