[EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK] I'm scared

[Psion]

Re: Psion...

You labled character creation as 'kewl new powerz' more than once, but then noted that the monsters have potential. That is where i believed you drew an arbitrary distinction.

How is it arbitrary? I know what appealed to me, I know what didn't.

Your analysis failed to demonstrate how one could draw such a distinction in quality in play.

Once again, you are trying to assign a position to me I do not hold. It's not at all that I think that the gameplay aspects of these things will be off, at least once GMs have a good notion of how to use them. Rather, I am saying that a lot of old assumptions about how to build a enthralling, challengign campaign will be changed by the resources and relative power available to characters in this book, and that will be something of a learning curve for GMs.

The very fact that you you labeled what were reasonable extrapolations of previous mechanics such as EPIC Feats as nothing more than 'kewl new powerz' and bemoaned the fact that somebody, somewhere would play the game with the the pure intent of min/max using Epic Rules brought an inflammatory, irrational air to your arguments.

Again you refuse to provide specifics about how I am "bemoaning" the nature of the book in play. Quote me, damnit! Otherwise, you are summarizing my thoughts and putting your own spin on them. You have totally misconstrued me, and refuse to back your own position up and address my actual position. Prime example: you still insist that I am bashing the ELH even after I have specifically denied doing so.

So be a man and back up your position. Tell me EXACTLY what I said that you think is wrong and why you think it is wrong. Dealing with generalities is not productive to understanding our relative positions.

And if you can't, if you find that once you read through my statements and find that the message that you thought was there is not, be a man and admit that you are wrong.

I am still waiting...

And i would ask you to please bring out a specific example of how Epic Level play is so drastically different from non-epic that comprehensive dms advise is a must.

It's not a must, and nor did I ever say it was -- once again, you are reading into my statements, so please refrain from trying to get me to defend things I never said. It's a "would've been nice."

As i mentioned, the shift is only as jolting as the dm makes it;

Then explain to me why they bother putting in sections that discuss properly challenging PCs at that level. The authors obviously know that there are fundamental differences in play at this level. Why are you denying it?

As to this argument that the book is souless, i would dismiss it by saying the consequences of epic levels comes by through simply by playing with the rules,

Indeed it does... and I never said otherwise. See my statement above: we have to figure out for ourselves what works and what doesn't. But I would rather avoid somoe of the pratfalls and attendant wasted nights of learning how the epic level rules work in play by trial and error. Those "errors" can be really annoying, even campaign wrecking.

not simply staring at them as if they possess their own aesthetic (which is why that notion that the character gen is not 'creative' really irks me).

Sorry, you're entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. They seem functional, but they certainly didn't excite me. Not that I am saying that they should have--like I said, its a tool. Like I said, we should view this as a tool.

Notice how the other posters who feel the need to defend the book (despite the fact I do not feel I am attacking it, per se) have not denied that it is "soulless."

This is where my point about the relative power between differently leveled characters comes in. The use by the dm of say multiple pit fiends would be enough to communicate to the players just how far they have come..

I do not understand your point here.

Anywho, i'm glad you've stated that such an argument is the result of limited perspective, not any tangible ingame effect. Otherwise i would think this argument hopeless...

When did I state that? You just can't help yourself from using insults and vague generalities as part of your argument, can't you? Just how is my perspective limited, pray tell?

 

[Psion]

Re: In conclusion...

I wish you would have tackled the book on its own terms, instead of waxing philosophic. And no, what i and others mean by differences in tone are the 'meta' realities of a particular campaign world, not the rules heavy challenges of traps/combat/etc. Tone is also effected by the way players and dms describe the effect of actions, which DOES very seriously from dm to dm. Just look at the different interpretations of hps...

Gah! You think you are teaching me something? I have been DMing for 20 years, I understand tone, thankyouverymuch!

 

[Vrylakos]

So, Psion...

Is the summary of your view that the ELH provides *rules* for Epic level characters, but doesn't really delve much into *how* to run games at Epic levels? You have tools, but not much in how to apply them for the 'epic feel', as opposed to high school powertripping?

Vrylakos

 

[Psion]

Re: Re: Re: ELH--Perspective, Please!

Scary? It's just an advanced level of play though. I mean, when you think about it, we've expanded the horizons of potentiality here, not done anything worthy of tectonic calamity. The rules are a logical expansion.

Okay. Just because it is a "logical expansion" doesn't mean that the nature of the challenge set before the GM hasn't changed. And a cursory look through the book should drive this point home. Just look at the nature of the challenges in the book. Some of them are really mind-boggling and far reaching. The scale of the impact on the campaign is different.

Yes, most may never use them simply because games peter out before 21st level arrives but maybe that should be a challenge to us DM's, though. For those of you, like myself, that have been playing D&D since Blackmoor, Gods, Demigods & Heroes and the like, there's always been this finite limit. Our DM-style, therefore, conformed to it.

And that is exactly my point! We have this experience, or have had it passed to us by tutelage under GMs before us. But ELH is a little different. That, I think, will make it a little more challenging to create a gripping game.

That's what's needed. A new way of DMing; one based less on the notion that a campaign naturally ends at 20th level with one that assumes the skies (literally) are the limits.

Well, its nice to see someone agrees that there will be some differences in the techniques used to run games at this level!

But Psion, you know they would do this, anyway. 3e, to be blunt, is rife with potential for Monty Haul. So what?

So what? At the risk of repeating myself: running a compelling, intruiging challenging game at this level IS going to be harder, but creating abusive characters is going to be easier. That is the challenge before us.

Just because it is a challenge doesn't mean its not worth it. It sounds fun. Difficult to DM. But fun.

Maybe I misunderstood your point but are you saying that because there will be some (loud) critics that we should then fear the creation of rules that would rile those who disagree with them?

Er, no. I prefer not to make my gaming decisions based on kvetchers. My point here is that (again, repeating myself) GMing ELH based games in a satisfactory, exciting manner is going to be a challenge because we don't have as much experience to base running these games on.

Need more clarification?

 

[Psion]

Is the summary of your view that the ELH provides *rules* for Epic level characters, but doesn't really delve much into *how* to run games at Epic levels? You have tools, but not much in how to apply them for the 'epic feel', as opposed to high school powertripping?

Something like that, yeah.

At least, that seems to be a fair summary of what I was trying to say in my hotly debates post. It's a big book, I have a lot of thoughts on it, not all of which I have expressed here.

Edit:
P.S.: What did you think of Swashbucklling Adventures? It reminded me a lot of your old style prestige classes.

 

[Kai Lord]

Re: Re: Psion...

Then explain to me why they bother putting in sections that discuss properly challenging PCs at that level. The authors obviously know that there are fundamental differences in play at this level. Why are you denying it?

Challenging a 12th level character is much more fundamentally different than challenging a 1st level character than the difference between 27th and 18th. Once you hit 15th and above, you're one of the movers and shakers of the world, and since you had to play through five whole levels of that before you became epic, do you really think its necessary for a book to hold your hand and spell out how to modify your campaigns in ways that you've already been doing for at least four to five levels anyway?

The reason the authors included that is because it does get progressively harder to keep the challenges varied as characters get more powerful, and therefore the need for hand-holding increases. I don't need that, and am glad that too much space wasn't wasted on it.

Some of us have been doing the "epic" thing for years and years. We didn't need hand-holding when we invented scenarios then and I don't presume that very many up and comers in the hobby need it now. All we needed were official rules that give our campaigns some common game mechanics.

Save the "Baby Steps into Epic Campaigns" for articles of Dragon and pack good hard numbers, tables, and stats into the rulebooks.

 

[tjasamcarl]

Uh, no....

The nature of the game has not changed fundementally. Combat still revolves around reduction in hp, with a greater emphasis on bypassing immunities, which was the case with level 15-20 anyway. The changes in challenges you are referring to deal with the use of 'strategic' spells such Teleport, Planeshift, Divinations, etc, which are 'passive', i.e. left up to dm fiat as to how much effect they will have on a campaign. While if a player decides to place a large emphasis on these abilities it would be beholdent of the dm to set up a consistent logical application for these abilities to provide the illusion of balance, its still more of a narrative issue then one of gameplay. The authors decided to throw a bone to those who care, but that does not mean that they have to shift priorities in order to accomodate it to the fullest degree.

And are you denying the sensational lables to attached to the player rules? And i would say the book is 'soulless' simply because i think the term 'soul' is a meaningless intangible which is only acting as a crutch for those who can't articulate their biases in a popular way...

But who am i to judge?

 

[Vrylakos]

Edit:
P.S.: What did you think of Swashbucklling Adventures? It reminded me a lot of your old style prestige classes.

Thanks for your thoughts on the ELH.

As for Swashd20, I haven't seen it anywhere, strangely. Now I'm interested...

To be fair, Killer Shrike did all the rules work on all but a handful of the Sword Styles of the Circle Sea classes and their brethren, while I was the background writer guy wherein the classes drew their inspiration.

Now I really need to take a look at it. That's the 7th Sea one, right?

Vrylakos

 

[WintermuteBlu]

Re: ELH--Perspective, Please!

And that is exactly my point! We have this experience, or have had it passed to us by tutelage under GMs before us. But ELH is a little different. That, I think, will make it a little more challenging to create a gripping game.

Okay, now I understand what you're saying and I agree 100%.

Well, its nice to see someone agrees that there will be some differences in the techniques used to run games at this level!

That's true. Starting with 'reimaging' my entire campaign to make those iconic NPCs I had in the background truly worthy of the name. That's Step One for me.

Other than that, it means seriously slowing down the pace of threats I'm willing to throw up against my PCs. They're almost on the verge of crossing that threshold (around 15th level) where, quite frankly, a horde of Gnolls really isn't worth much to them and yet a jaunt through the Planes might seriously tax their capabilities to the limit. But I can see now that I'll have to restructure my threats, beefing some up and, indeed, create some 'seedlings' that presage Epic-Level villains in the future.

But yes, it's going to be a mentally jarring adjustment the first time someone breaks that 'glass ceiling'.

So what? At the risk of repeating myself: running a compelling, intruiging challenging game at this level IS going to be harder, but creating abusive characters is going to be easier. That is the challenge before us.

Just because it is a challenge doesn't mean its not worth it. It sounds fun. Difficult to DM. But fun.

Exactly. My only point with that 'so what?' comment was that for the kvetchers, 3e is a Munchkin paradise. No amount of amelioration will succour or assuage their ire at anything that smacks of 'power-gaming'. They're not going to like ELH and, my thought is, we should ignore them and go on.

My mistake was, in the below comment, assuming you seemed a bit...reticent to take on challenges based on the level of moaning one might hear from kvetchers.

My apologies.

Er, no. I prefer not to make my gaming decisions based on kvetchers. My point here is that (again, repeating myself) GMing ELH based games in a satisfactory, exciting manner is going to be a challenge because we don't have as much experience to base running these games on.

Need more clarification?

Not a bit. You've made yourself clear. Thank you

 

[Valicor]

I just picked up the book yesterday, and started to go through it while reading this thread today.

I noticed the lay out is really well structured and flows with the numbers. I think that it was a good idea to focus on the book the way they did.

The way the book is presented, heavy on numbers and game structure at high level, and low on campaign information, and gaming style is a good thing.

As it has been pointed out a few times it is up to the DM to determine the challenges of a campaign, nto every DM will be able to do this, but to those who can, it will be a greta long game.

Sure the book could have had alot more information on say; class advancment, more spells, more monsters, but they had to cover alot of information, There will be other epic books & adventuers that wil more then likely fill in the gaps.

One of the problems I have witnessed about games not reaching high level which for some but not all has cossed a desire of campaign level limit. Is the desire to switch characters. After playign a character for along time they start to wanna try somethign new, and oftn astart new characters, often so may characters in a campaign get changed the hole campaign has to be revamped and restarted. I have witnessed this in almsot every game I have played so far.