[EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK] I'm scared

[rounser]

I will say this, Epic level rules are mechanics and certainly don't provide for some things you would look for.

Well, yes and no. There's mechanics and then there's mechanics. Feats, spells, monsters etc. are flavour, as well as mechanics, you know...they define D&D's "meta-setting", and therefore help define the feel of D&D. Then there are purely mechanical mechanics, like "roll a d20 to resolve this", which are a different kettle of fish...

Anyway.

 

[Nightfall]

Right, but my point is, aside from that, there's little "MEAT" that you, as a DM, could find useful in running a game. I know that because you said as much. That even though the feats are fun, and the monsters are interesting, there is much else to enjoy about the book.

 

[rounser]

Right, but my point is, aside from that, there's little "MEAT" that you, as a DM, could find useful in running a game. I know that because you said as much.

In a different thread, with a different specious sort of argument to this one (which was about WotC's overall product line for D&D and how it's focus on "options hardbacks" to the exclusion of other products could be "harming the game" for reasons such as "distracting DMs, especially noobs, from stuff which actually improves campaigns, as opposed to statting ninja gods and planes that PCs will never visit in a game where the first rule of Dungeoncraft is already ignored enough" leading to "poorer quality games" and therefore "reduced interest in D&D", culminating in "the end of mankind as we know it"). It doesn't map to this one.

This thread....I'm arguing that hokey subjective wishy-washiness such as "feel" and "inspiration factor" are valid basises for judging a D&D book, and that it's a significant part of the game's appeal. I've also said above that injecting "soul" into a product does not imply inclusion of "fluff" or "meat" or "advice" in place of crunch as a lot of people seem to assume.

Also as mentioned above, a lot of mechanics carry flavour (and therefore "soul") with them, as does other wishy-washiness such as artwork, presentation, direction of the content etc. all of which exist in a solely crunchful book. I'm not even referring to the ELH book in particular, but I don't blame you for assuming that I was.

Hope this makes sense...

 

[Kai Lord]

Kai Lord:

I think we're running into definitional problems. Let me clarify.

Tolkien, Dragonlance, etc. are "epic," in the way that the stories they tell are larger than life.

They are not--IMHO, of course, but that almost goes without saying--"epic" in the sense of the Epic Level Campaigns book.

I was clear on your position, which is why I showed where ELH game mechanics would be necessary to emulate those settings you listed. I think maybe you're getting hung up on that "Union" city nonsense listed in the book. I don't see an Epic campaign as one featuring whole cities of 30th level characters and Epic monsters will hardly show up on any wandering monster chart I use.

The campaign is just the campaign. Period. There will be "epic" elements and non-epic elements. And by "epic" I'm referring specifically the ELH rules.

Sauron doesn't count. Raistlin doesn't count. Why? Because they aren't "PCs." (And don't tell me "Raistlin was a PC in the modules." You know what I mean.)

No, I really don't know what you mean. I once had a player who had just read the first six Dragonlance books tell me he wanted to play a mage that challenged the gods like Raistlin did. He started at first level, played through the Test of High Sorcery, then I had him whisked away to a little pocket realm of shadow people and other bizarre creatures created by a black-robed wizard named Zorgar. The player's character apprenticed under Zorgar and learned that his master was aspiring to challenge Takhisis, not with the intent of destroying all the other gods, but to just rule in her place. He knew what Raistlin was going to do, so he groomed the PC to become powerful enough to engage Raistlin at the exact moment of Raistlin and Takhisis' showdown at the end of the Legends series.

Long story short, Zorgar and the PC interrupted the Tak/Raist battle, Zorgar destroyed Tak and the PC took out Raistlin. Zorgar became the new god of evil and the PC was named demigod of evil dragons and retired his character. This was an entire campaign where the PC worked his way up to the power levels of his adversaries and prevailed. Are you going to tell me that that campaign was more "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" than Dragonlance? No way.

The lion share of that particular campaign was the intrigue and advancement in the shadow realm, with the whole "gods battle" only occuring during the last session of the entire campaign. The thing was, I had absolutely NO RULES for it, and had to improvise everything.

I'm really curious as to why you consider Raistlin disqualified as a PC. Because he wasn't Lawful Good? I'm serious. The guy is full-on ELH material.

The fact that you can't create Sauron by the rules in the PHB doesn't mean anything.

Lets see. In your opinion, Tolkien equals "standard" fantasy while ELH does not. Sauron, a Tolkien character, can only be created using ELH rules, but that doesn't mean anything. Okay...

The fact that Bard killed a dragon with one shot isn't the difference between low-level and epic; it's the difference between a novel setting and a game that involves a hit point system with no hit location chart.

And the ELH makes heroism in "the game" more like "the novels." I find that an odd thing to complain about, or perhaps more accurately, use to claim that D&D emulating "novel-style heroics" is "non-standard fantasy."

I don't only throw 4th level adversaries at 4th level characters. Most of my campaigns have the Big Bad lurking in the background, someone the PCs couldn't possibly handle in direct combat (at least at first). And yeah, some of them have powers that go beyond what's available to 20th level characters.

And I suppose the ELH is a good tool for making such NPCs.

We at least agree that its great for giving game mechanics to the Big Bad Boss without the PC's crying fowl.

But I still feel that having PCs capable of doing stuff like that gives the game an entirely different feel than "standard" fantasy.

But there's a lot in D&D that's already against "standard" fantasy. How many fantasy stories feature characters that can teleport at will? Think of how wildly different LOTR would be if Gandalf had access to all the spells in the Player's Handbook. But that doesn't keep DM's from coming up with ways to counter the players' abilities and still run campaigns that would make great books. Dragonlance isn't so different from LOTR thematically, but the DL characters have wildly more varied and dramatic tools at their disposal than the Fellowship had. Yet even you equate it with "standard" fantasy fare.

The fact that you might not use the walking on clouds skill checks doesn't negate the fact that they're in there, and apparently intended for use.

There are also rules for making half-dragon vampire PC's. Such wonkiness doesn't make 3E anymore "non-standard" than the ELH.

The book basically, in my mind, either went too far or not far enough. It changes too much to feel/run like a "standard" D&D campaign, but it doesn't go far enough in providing fodder for a good "non-standard" feel. And yes, I'm certainly capable of making that stuff up on my own. But the books should at least get the DM, beginner or expert, moving in the right direction. I don't feel this one did.

But you've obviously recognized the inspirational "fodder" for some of the outlandish fringe elements of the ELH: Crouching Tiger, Princess Mononoke, etc. Hell any game with a 15th level monk gets into Crouching Tiger territory.

I guess I just don't see the difference between a non-epic campaign where the PC's can cast Wish or Miracle one or more times per day vs. an epic one where they can kill dragons with one arrow or cause undead to crumble within 15 feet of them.

If you aren't dealing with magic-users, epic-level is simply more "cinematic" than non-epic and virtually indistinguishable thematically. Magic-users can throw a monkey wrench into many a DM's campaign, but they do that in non-epic adventures already.

 

[Celtavian]

Challenging a 12th level character is much more fundamentally different than challenging a 1st level character than the difference between 27th and 18th. Once you hit 15th and above, you're one of the movers and shakers of the world, and since you had to play through five whole levels of that before you became epic, do you really think its necessary for a book to hold your hand and spell out how to modify your campaigns in ways that you've already been doing for at least four to five levels anyway?

I seriously disagree with this notion. I have been reading over the ELH. A 27th lvl character with epic feats will wipe the floor with an 18th lvl character.

Given this reality, it will be much more difficult to challenge high level characters. Everything they do will have to be an epic challenge or they won't even get xp. Think about it, A lvl 27 character could fight an army of Fire Giants and not get xp from killing them.

On the flip side, a lvl 18 character trying to do battle with a Primal Elemental is going to die and die quick. Entire cities can be destroyed by a Primal Elemental or similar epic lvl creatures even if a whole party of lvl 18 characters is trying to stop them. Heck, even if a whole army of lvl 18 charactes rises to meet them.

DMing is taken to a whole new level in the Epic Level Handbook. The way they extrapolated the classes, magic items, and monsters, DM's will have to be very careful when creating adventures. It will take a while before a DM will be able fine tune adventures so they are not overpowered or underpowered.

Personally, I will tend to create conservative adventures initially, because I believe it will be very easy to kill epic level characters with epic level monsters. The kinds of monsters and challenges lvl 27 characters will be facing might very well kill them instantly with one unlucky die roll at the start of the fight. That would be unfortunate.

I don't really see how anyone can make the assertion that epic level play will not be drastically different than non-epic play even. Lvl 15 to 20 characters will not hold candles to lvl 21 to 25 characters . The disparity will only become greater as the characters rise in level.

All I know is my campaign is a long ways off from epic. I am glad. I need time to think about how I can create challenging adventures that are fun. I need time to think about how I will dole out magic items as poweful as epic magic as well. It will be very strange to have some PC wielding a +10 Vorpal Thundering Keen Greatsword, very strange indeed.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Ding Dong, the Munchkin's Dead!

The word munchkin, adapted from the Wizard of Oz to mean a ridiculously powerful character, then corrupted to mean any character one does not like in D&D, can now be returned at last to it's original meaning.

It's original meaning, that is, of referring to the people of the eastern part of the Land of Oz.

No more will munchkin be used to refer to ridiculously powerful characters, for now there are no ridiculously powerful characters.
By the official rules, any level of power is now acceptable, including godhood.

Cheers.
No more will players be able to (truly) denounce other players for playing characters they don't like.
And justify this as the character in question being munchkin.

So ...

(sings)

Ding dong, the munchkin's dead;
munch-o-munch, the munchkin's dead;
Ding dong, the wicked munchkin's dead!

(sings)

I've throughly examined it
Not only is it merely dead
It's really most sincerely dead

 

[Knight Otu]

Epic level guardians for an epic city, I can take.
15th level bard groupies, I cannot. Do these groupies have groupies themselves, being so good performers?

 

[Kai Lord]

I seriously disagree with this notion. I have been reading over the ELH. A 27th lvl character with epic feats will wipe the floor with an 18th lvl character.

Five 18th level wizards can kick the crap out of a 27th level fighter. What are five 1st level wizards going to do against a 12th level fighter? Get their asses kicked.

Given this reality, it will be much more difficult to challenge high level characters. Everything they do will have to be an epic challenge or they won't even get xp. Think about it, A lvl 27 character could fight an army of Fire Giants and not get xp from killing them.

On the flip side, a lvl 18 character trying to do battle with a Primal Elemental is going to die and die quick.

That isn't the flip side. The flip side is that a 1st level character will get his ass kicked just as quickly by a CR 12 monster, no different fundamentally than an 18th level character getting beat down by a CR 27 monster.

I don't really see how anyone can make the assertion that epic level play will not be drastically different than non-epic play even. Lvl 15 to 20 characters will not hold candles to lvl 21 to 25 characters . The disparity will only become greater as the characters rise in level.

A 20th level rogue has no chance of taking a 21st level rogue? Might want to reread the book. And you think your 25th level fighter is suddenly immune to Harm and a Quickened Inflict Light Wounds? Touch. Touch. You dead. Killed by an 11th level cleric. Don't even get me going about a 20th level min-maxed archmage. Your epic fighter will be lucky to survive to round 2.

 

[Johno]

Five 18th level wizards can kick the crap out of a 27th level fighter.

--snip--

And you think your 25th level fighter is suddenly immune to Harm and a Quickened Inflict Light Wounds? Touch. Touch. You dead. Killed by an 11th level cleric. Don't even get me going about a 20th level min-maxed archmage. Your epic fighter will be lucky to survive to round 2.

Don't start this crap again. A well-equipped Epic adventurer WILL have resources to counter such simple tactics.

Setting up ludicrous fights in this fashion can be done both ways. No point is "proven".

DnD is NOT about which character is the "best". A well-rounded team is what usually saves the day.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

Five 18th level wizards can kick the crap out of a 27th level fighter. What are five 1st level wizards going to do against a 12th level fighter? Get their asses kicked.

Do you really think a lvl 27 fighter is not going to have some kind of magic item that gives him spell resistance or huge saving throw bonuses? I bet an average lvl 27 epic lvl warrior is going to be wearing armor that has great resistance to everything and spell resistance.

Each round one wizard going to die to a lvl 27 epic lvl warrior. So they have 5 rounds to kill him. His initiative will most likely also be much higher than the lvl 18 wizards. The gods better help the wizards if he happens to be an epic archer type.

That isn't the flip side. The flip side is that a 1st level character will get his ass kicked just as quickly by a CR 12 monster, no different fundamentally than an 18th level character getting beat down by a CR 27 monster.

Except that the 1st lvl character can actually damage the 12th lvl character with a lucky hit or run off. You look at some of those Damage Reduction modifiers? No group of lvl 18 characters is going to touch some of these creatures, not even with a lucky blow.

A 20th level rogue has no chance of taking a 21st level rogue? Might want to reread the book. And you think your 25th level fighter is suddenly immune to Harm and a Quickened Inflict Light Wounds? Touch. Touch. You dead. Killed by an 11th level cleric. Don't even get me going about a 20th level min-maxed archmage. Your epic fighter will be lucky to survive to round 2.

An 11th level cleric is not going to land a spell on a lvl 25 fighter. Probably not going to live to get his attack.

A 20th lvl rogue has a chance of taking on a 21st level rogue. I was thinking more in terms of 5 lvl spreads. A lvl 15 rogue doesn't have a change against a 21st lvl rogue. A lvl 20 rogue doesn't have a change against a 25th lvl rogue.

Epic level play is much tougher than pre-epic play. It will get moreso once epic characters start building up epic feats. There will definitely be a separation of power between pre-20 and post-20. It may start off minor, but it will grow as lvls accumulate.