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5E Epic Levels 21-30 (please help/give thoughts)

So, I have started making a my own homebrew system from gaining levels beyond level 20. I have currently mostly completed 4 subclasses, and the document below has a link to the physical version of this. I haven't finished transferring them from my physical copy to this version, and am making minor adjustments when I do so, but I currently have the Artificer and most of the Paladin in this document:
(I had a minor setback yesterday, I finished the Paladin completely, but there was a problem with saving it, so the class was lost. I am currently still catching up with putting the features in the document, but will be updating it daily.)

So, what do you think? Any comments or thoughts on the abilities? It's taken me awhile to figure out how powerful I would like all of the classes to be at level 30, but they should be the equivalent of a demigod in the current version, maybe a bit more powerful.

I would appreciate any feedback that I can get, and I am mainly doing this so I have a system I'm satisfied with for my own table. Feel free to use it if you like it, as it is still in the development phase.
 

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Eyes of Nine

Everything's Fine
So, I have started making a my own homebrew system from gaining levels beyond level 20. I have currently mostly completed 4 subclasses, and the document below has a link to the physical version of this. I haven't finished transferring them from my physical copy to this version, and am making minor adjustments when I do so, but I currently have the Artificer and most of the Paladin in this document:
(I had a minor setback yesterday, I finished the Paladin completely, but there was a problem with saving it, so the class was lost. I am currently still catching up with putting the features in the document, but will be updating it daily.)

So, what do you think? Any comments or thoughts on the abilities? It's taken me awhile to figure out how powerful I would like all of the classes to be at level 30, but they should be the equivalent of a demigod in the current version, maybe a bit more powerful.

I would appreciate any feedback that I can get, and I am mainly doing this so I have a system I'm satisfied with for my own table. Feel free to use it if you like it, as it is still in the development phase.
Don't know much about Artificer (still haven't read Eberron yet).

For the Paladin, only a few comments:
Glorious Champion: I'd let them be a Fiend as well as a Celestial. Just to cover you know, anti-paladins.

Improved Fighting Style Protection seems pretty strong - Auto fail an attack once per turn on an ally. But maybe I have to shift my thinking from 1-20 levels, and go big!

Most of these seem like iterations on already existing powers, just adding range, or quantity of uses. Maybe that's how the PHB 1-20 levels go too; and the special stuff is in the Sacred Oath feats.
 


Glorious Champion: I'd let them be a Fiend as well as a Celestial. Just to cover you know, anti-paladins.
Yep, I'll add that. Should I have it be based on alignment, or just the player's choice?
Oathbreakers at level 30 will become undead, though, just for the theme.
Improved Fighting Style Protection seems pretty strong - Auto fail an attack once per turn on an ally. But maybe I have to shift my thinking from 1-20 levels, and go big!
Yes, it's meant to be strong. I've developed a few of the other classes so far, and it's powerful, but definitely not the craziest thing that they'll get. It's just an autofail on one attack, and at this level, most villains should have many attacks in a turn, so it's going to be balanced. Thanks for the concern.
Most of these seem like iterations on already existing powers, just adding range, or quantity of uses. Maybe that's how the PHB 1-20 levels go too; and the special stuff is in the Sacred Oath feats.
Yes, that's mainly what I'm doing. I'm not expanding on what the base classes can do, they just get better at their abilities. The subclasses will get more specific and unique features.
 

All depends on what gonna be level 10, 11, 12,... spells .
Yeah. I'm waiting to delve down that hole, probably after I develop all the classes. I know I'm going to include some spells from previous editions (Proctiv's Move Mountain, Karsus's Avatar, etc) but will also include some other spells around the same in power.

There's definitely going to be heavy restrictions, though. The 10th, 11th, and 12th level spell slots for Wizards, Clerics, etc will probably be mostly used for upcasting 8th-9th level spells.
 


dave2008

Legend
Quick question: I didn't see anything in the document saying you could go above 20 with an ability score. So does the general cap of 20 still exist?

Right now these seem like extensions of the base classes, which personally doesn't feel epic to me. I am mean what makes it epic if it is just more of the same?

When you mentioned you didn't like how didn't like the items on the DMsGuild that did the same thing (Epic Options, Epic Characters, & Epic Rules), I assumed you were going to make something different. But this seems to just be a variant of the same idea. Perhaps I am thinking of someone else, but I thought you were going to make something like epic prestige classes, which sounds more interesting to me.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
What is your underlying math?

5e assumes each block of 4-5 levels or so gives the same amount of oomph. This is part of what makes 5e multiclassing work.

If you are increasing the oomph per level, then you break multiclassing.

In essence, a level 30 barbarian or fighter needs to be compared against a level 10 barbarian/level 20 fighter.

Build crazy L30 multiclass builds and use it as your balance target.

Paladin 6/Hexblade 3/Gloom 3/Whispers 18.

A level 30 paladin could be comparible to that.

One you have a few such baselines, getting the rest of the balance is easier.

Alternatively, you could decide a level 30 PC is power-equivalent to a level 20 fighter/level 20 barbarian. (The CR math supports this). That epic level multiclassing gives two sub-20 levels of features, or one post-20.

That gives a different balance point, and gives you more room to play with power-wise. An epic 30 PC is equivalent to a L20 Fighter/Barbaian for example, or Paladin 20/Hex 3/Gloom 3/Assassin 3/Whispers 11.

All of this also puts ceilings on above-9 level spell power as well.
 
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dave2008

Legend
Have you thought of 4e's Epic Tiers? Maybe create brand new Epic level pathways, instead of expanding on existing sub-classes?
That would be my recommendation as well, but that doesn't appear to be what @AcererakTriple6 wants to do. I love epic play ideas, but this one is done IMO and I don't really have any interest in it at the moment.
 

Quick question: I didn't see anything in the document saying you could go above 20 with an ability score. So does the general cap of 20 still exist?
No, it follows the DMG rules for having Ability Scores being capped at 30.
Right now these seem like extensions of the base classes, which personally doesn't feel epic to me. I am mean what makes it epic if it is just more of the same?
In this, Epic classes just mean 21st-30th level in the classes. Also, a lot of the classes get very epic abilities, like Warlocks creating more warlocks and becoming essentially immortal, paladins becoming celestials/fiends/undead knights, etc.

Edit: I guess my main goal is for these class levels to not turn the original classes into something they weren't before. Epic Rage will basically achieve the same thing as Rage, but better. Classes level 21-30 will have abilities similar to earlier levels, but a lot better, to the power level of them being essentially demigods.
When you mentioned you didn't like how didn't like the items on the DMsGuild that did the same thing (Epic Options, Epic Characters, & Epic Rules), I assumed you were going to make something different. But this seems to just be a variant of the same idea. Perhaps I am thinking of someone else, but I thought you were going to make something like epic prestige classes, which sounds more interesting to me.
I've never played a previous edition, and am not familiar with prestige classes, so that must've been someone else.

Yes, it is similar to the others in some ways, but I am developing my own version, just with my own take on it.
 
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What is your underlying math?

5e assumes each block of 4-5 levels or so gives the same amount of oomph. This is part of what makes 5e multiclassing work.

If you are increasing the oomph per level, then you break multiclassing.

In essence, a level 30 barbarian or fighter needs to be compared against a level 10 barbarian/level 20 fighter.

Build crazy L30 multiclass builds and use it as your balance target.

Paladin 6/Hexblade 3/Gloom 3/Whispers 18.

A level 30 paladin could be comparible to that.

One you have a few such baselines, getting the rest of the balance is easier.

Alternatively, you could decide a level 30 PC is power-equivalent to a level 20 fighter/level 20 barbarian. (The CR math supports this). That epic level multiclassing gives two sub-20 levels of features, or one post-20.

That gives a different balance point, and gives you more room to play with power-wise. An epic 30 PC is equivalent to a L20 Fighter/Barbaian for example, or Paladin 20/Hex 3/Gloom 3/Assassin 3/Whispers 11.

All of this also puts ceilings on above-9 level spell power as well.
It's going to be ending up closer to Fighter 20/Barbarian 20 equals a Fighter 30 or Barbarian 30. I'm not designing this system around multiclassing. If this breaks multiclassing, it's not really a concern of mine at this point to break a variant rule that I have never played with. When I finish, I may provide a variant ruleset for leveling up in "epic levels" with multiclassing, but I'm not going to focus on that now.
 


Have you thought of 4e's Epic Tiers? Maybe create brand new Epic level pathways, instead of expanding on existing sub-classes?
I've never played 4e, or really looked into the how epic levels worked in that system.
That would be my recommendation as well, but that doesn't appear to be what @AcererakTriple6 wants to do. I love epic play ideas, but this one is done IMO and I don't really have any interest in it at the moment.
That's fine. I'm sure some people will prefer the other versions, but I will continue working on this one.
 

dave2008

Legend
No, it follows the DMG rules for having Ability Scores being capped at 30.
OK, I didn't see that mentioned you were using the optional rules in the DMG. I assume epic boons as well? As is, with only two ASIs you can't get close to 30 in a stat (without magic items) unless your a barbarian. Most will top out at 24 unless you are changing something else too.
Yes, it is similar to the others in some ways, but I am developing my own version, just with my own take on it.
I understand that desire - just not my cup of tea. Good luck!
 

OK, I didn't see that mentioned you were using the optional rules in the DMG. I assume epic boons as well? As is, with only two ASIs you can't get close to 30 in a stat (without magic items) unless your a barbarian. Most will top out at 24 unless you are changing something else too.
I'm going to add clarifications on that later, I haven't added them yet. I'm probably going to allow 2 Epic Boons once you get to 21st level, as well as 5 Ability Score Improvements for "free". By level 30, a character should have at least one 30, and probably a 26-28 in their secondary one.
 

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