D&D 5E Epic Levels 21-30 (please help/give thoughts)

[NotAYakk]

It's going to be ending up closer to Fighter 20/Barbarian 20 equals a Fighter 30 or Barbarian 30. I'm not designing this system around multiclassing. If this breaks multiclassing, it's not really a concern of mine at this point to break a variant rule that I have never played with. When I finish, I may provide a variant ruleset for leveling up in "epic levels" with multiclassing, but I'm not going to focus on that now.

Then it remains the question, do you have underlying math, or are you just winging it?

Having underlying math can help align different epic classes easier than having to do N choose 2 comparisons.

It isn't trivial, and winging it is much easier.

I can give an example however. We can say that our level 30 character is equivalent to a Champion Fighter 20 Zealot Barbarian 20 half-orc overall (but only L 30, so +8 proficiency)

We'll modestly optimize; Great Weapon Mastery, Flametongue Greataxe, 24 strength, 24 constitution, 20 dex.

+8 proficiency, +7 strength, -5 GWM is +10 to hit.

Against an AC of 20 this hits on a 10+ for 80% accuracy 28% crit rate.

Hit is 1d12+2d6+17, or 30.5. Crit is 6d12+4d6+17, or +5d12+2d6 (39.5) over a normal hit. Zealot is another 1d6+10 per round.

13.5 from zealot; more likely it crits than it misses, but the crit is small, so we'll neglect it.

155.34 damage per action on AC 20.

Your HP are 6*20+7*20+40*7+5 or 545.

Your AC while naked is 22.

It took 8 ASIs to hit 24/24/20 in physical stats plus GWM. You have 3 ASIs remaining; resiliant at the very least. Maybe lucky.

You have 2 action surges. So your 3 round damage output vs AC 20 is 672.8 or 224 per round.

Your raw DPR is 216.5 with effective accuracy of +15; your crits are worth about another +7, as your critical hits are a bit more than double damage. Call it +22 to hit (effective).

Your AC is 22, but you grant advantage, so closer to 17. Your resistance to BPS is worth +50% HP or so.

Using (DPR*HP*(1+.1*(ATK+AC-13)))/5 we get this barbarian+fighter is "worth" about 84955 XP, or is a CR 25-26 creature.

Hmm, I forgot about GWF (fighting style), or the champions 2nd fighting style. That'd add a bit of damage. Not sure what to do with 2nd fighting style, given that the barbarian is naked.

A raw level 20 fighter with no subclass (!) in full plate using a flaming greatsword in +2 armor and shield (AC 24, 4d6+5(19) damage) is 76 damage per action, or 127 DPR. They have ~18 con for 204 HP. Their ATK is +6 (!) and AC is 24. Using the same math we get this fighter is worth 13990 XP, or between CR 15 and 16.

A subclass would help, maybe samurai to make up for the GWF inaccuracy or battlemaster. That might bump the CR by a point or two.

(Note that a better measure of PC-CR is to give them an adventuring day; without that, the Paladin and other "dump spell" builds get crazy. Here we used short rest resources only (other than healing)).

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Then it remains the question, do you have underlying math, or are you just winging it?

Having underlying math can help align different epic classes easier than having to do N choose 2 comparisons.

It isn't trivial, and winging it is much easier.

I can give an example however. We can say that our level 30 character is equivalent to a Champion Fighter 20 Zealot Barbarian 20 half-orc overall (but only L 30, so +8 proficiency)

We'll modestly optimize; Great Weapon Mastery, Flametongue Greataxe, 24 strength, 24 constitution, 20 dex.

+8 proficiency, +7 strength, -5 GWM is +10 to hit.

Against an AC of 20 this hits on a 10+ for 80% accuracy 28% crit rate.

Hit is 1d12+2d6+17, or 30.5. Crit is 6d12+4d6+17, or +5d12+2d6 (39.5) over a normal hit. Zealot is another 1d6+10 per round.

13.5 from zealot; more likely it crits than it misses, but the crit is small, so we'll neglect it.

155.34 damage per action on AC 20.

Your HP are 6*20+7*20+40*7+5 or 545.

Your AC while naked is 22.

It took 8 ASIs to hit 24/24/20 in physical stats plus GWM. You have 3 ASIs remaining; resiliant at the very least. Maybe lucky.

You have 2 action surges. So your 3 round damage output vs AC 20 is 672.8 or 224 per round.

Your raw DPR is 216.5 with effective accuracy of +15; your crits are worth about another +7, as your critical hits are a bit more than double damage. Call it +22 to hit (effective).

Your AC is 22, but you grant advantage, so closer to 17. Your resistance to BPS is worth +50% HP or so.

Using (DPR*HP*(1+.1*(ATK+AC-13)))/5 we get this barbarian+fighter is "worth" about 84955 XP, or is a CR 25-26 creature.

Hmm, I forgot about GWF (fighting style), or the champions 2nd fighting style. That'd add a bit of damage. Not sure what to do with 2nd fighting style, given that the barbarian is naked.

A raw level 20 fighter with no subclass (!) in full plate using a flaming greatsword in +2 armor and shield (AC 24, 4d6+5(19) damage) is 76 damage per action, or 127 DPR. They have ~18 con for 204 HP. Their ATK is +6 (!) and AC is 24. Using the same math we get this fighter is worth 13990 XP, or between CR 15 and 16.

A subclass would help, maybe samurai to make up for the GWF inaccuracy or battlemaster. That might bump the CR by a point or two.

(Note that a better measure of PC-CR is to give them an adventuring day; without that, the Paladin and other "dump spell" builds get crazy. Here we used short rest resources only (other than healing)).

I have underlying math and similar abilities across the classes and subclasses, I know how powerful I want them to be, but don't really need to go so in-depth to calculate the damage from all the feats and other abilities.

A well built PC with this system should be able to achieve at least a 30 for armor class, probably higher for certain archetypes (Swashbucklers will get Suave Defense, so Charisma added to AC, and paladins have Improved Aura of Protection that essentially gives the same thing.).

I know how powerful things will be, if I make a mistake and something is too powerful or not powerful enough, I can fairly easily change it. IMO, it is easier to design something, check if it fits in power-wise with the others afterwards, and possibly rebuild/shift it based on how the ability is, instead of doing the math first for all of them, and building abilities around that.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I've added most of the rogue subclasses, and would like feedback if possible. I will also add the Fighter and Barbarian classes soon, and continue to update here and on the document regularly.

 

[dave2008]

I've added most of the rogue subclasses, and would like feedback if possible. I will also add the Fighter and Barbarian classes soon, and continue to update here and on the document regularly.

Here are some thoughts (keep in mind I am a DM not a player):

• Epic Expertise: The phrasing is odd and I know what you mean because of expertise, but it reads to me like you can apply the bonus to any ability check, not just the ability check for that particular skill. It is of course OP, but that is kinda the point IMO.
• Improved Cunning Action: This seams potentially OP, but maybe not. All depends on how it balances against the other classes.
• Improved Blindsense: I would just say that it increase the range of your blindsense feature. As worded, there is no requirement to be able to hear either.
• Smooth Tongue: Maybe have it also give expertise if you already have proficiency?
• Improved Uncanny Dodge: I would phrase it like: "Starting at 25th level, when an attacker that you can see hits you with an Attack, you can use your Reaction to take no damage from the attack." You have removed the requirement to see the attack. I would do one (no damage) or the other (remove the requirement to see the attack), not both.
• Improved Reliable Talent: No issue, but I would have it follow the PHB wording more closely.
• Epic Elusivity: This is a little clunky, but not sure what to do. The idea of the 1st sentence is fine, but it could be streamlined. Not sure about the 2nd sentence / idea. I feel like there might be a better way to achieve the same thing. Also do attackers deal extra damage when the target is hidden? Or did you mean when the attacker is hidden?
• Harness Luck:I don't like this one much. Simple solution would be to let them use stroke of luck 2x per short or long rest. However, I like the idea of given it new uses as well. Some additional thoughts:
  • A miss to a critical hit seems a bit much (but maybe not). How about making a hit a critical hit?
  • This doesn't add much as a 20 is going to normally be a success, even more so with all the skill buffs the you get from epic expertise.
  • The divination magic protection seems out place here. I would drop it.

I hope that helps.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Here are some thoughts (keep in mind I am a DM not a player):

• Epic Expertise: The phrasing is odd and I know what you mean because of expertise, but it reads to me like you can apply the bonus to any ability check, not just the ability check for that particular skill. It is of course OP, but that is kinda the point IMO.
• Improved Cunning Action: This seams potentially OP, but maybe not. All depends on how it balances against the other classes.
• Improved Blindsense: I would just say that it increase the range of your blindsense feature. As worded, there is no requirement to be able to hear either.
• Smooth Tongue: Maybe have it give expertise if you already have proficiency?
• Improved Uncanny Dodge: I would phrase it like: "Starting at 25th level, when an attacker that you can see hits you with an Attack, you can use your Reaction to take no damage from the attack." You have removed the requirement to see the attack. I would do one (all damage) or the other (remove the requirement to see the attack), not both.
• Improved Reliable Talent: No issue, but I would have it follow the PHB wording more closely.
• Epic Elusivity: This is a little clunky, but not sure what to do. The idea of 1st sentence is fine, but it could be streamlines. Not sure about the 2nd sentence / idea. I feel like there might be a better way to achieve the same thing. Also do attackers deal extra damage when the target is hidden? Or did you mean when the attacker is hidden?
• Harness Luck:I don't like this one much. Simple solution would be to let them use stroke of luck 2x per short or long rest. However, I like the idea of given it new uses as well. Some additional thoughts:
  • A miss to a critical hit seems a bit much (but maybe not). How about making a hit a critical hit?
  • This doesn't add much as a 20 is going to normally be a success, even more so with all the skill buffs the you get from epic expertise.
  • The divination magic protection seems out place here. I would drop it.

I hope that helps.

Thanks. I'll rework the wording when I get the time to go over all the classes and make the language reflect the PHB more. Improved Cunning Action definitely will not be OP compared to the other classes. Sure, multiclassing to get Extra Attack will seem very viable, but in the long run with this system, it's better not to multiclass.
I'll add a sight requirement for Improved Uncanny Dodge.
I meant the attacker being hidden in Epic Elusivity. I'll clear that up as well.
Harness Luck, the miss to critical hit is supposed to be good and very, very powerful, but I don't think it's going to end up being broken. I know the fail to a 20 now being fail to success doesn't seem amazing, maybe I should change it to an autosuccess on a save? Maybe I should add the divination magic thing to Epic Elusivity.

 

[dave2008]

Harness Luck, the miss to critical hit is supposed to be good and very, very powerful, but I don't think it's going to end up being broken. I know the fail to a 20 now being fail to success doesn't seem amazing, maybe I should change it to an autosuccess on a save? Maybe I should add the divination magic thing to Epic Elusivity.

I personally don't like the idea of turning a miss into a crit, regardless of whether it is technically broken or not. It is the concept for me. But that is why you are making your own and not a system that is already available. You do you.

Why do you feel the rouge should have protection from divination magic, what is the story element? Maybe if the text explained how this is possible. Personally I don't like 100% protection, but that is a problem with 5e in a lot of areas. In the quest for simplicity a lot of things are absolute.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I have added the base Barbarian from 21-30, and am in the progress of making the subclasses.