Epic Magic Big Thread

[Sepulchrave II]

Re: Mordenkainen's Disjunction

Looked it up in 1e Unearthed Arcana - the 3.X MDJ is essentially unchanged - a problem it shares with many other 9th-level spells. The 1e version only had a 30-ft radius, though

Here is how I would personally prefer it to be, FWIW:

Mage’s Disjunction
Abjuration

Level: Magic 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Magic item touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: No or Will negates (object); see text
Spell Resistance: No

A magic item which you touch is disjoined - separated into its individual magical components, and rendered inert. Potions or scrolls are disjoined with no saving throw. A permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item. An item in a creature’s possession uses its own Will save bonus or its possessor’s Will save bonus, whichever is higher.

Even artifacts are subject to disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)

Note: Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device.

 

[Cheiromancer]

If you are looking for a way of destroying an individual item, why not just disintegrate it? If you want to destroy an item *and* get a masterwork item of the same sort to replace it, you would use this spell. But the replace-with-masterwork-item-instead-of-merely-destroying-it feature seems to have an awfully high premium (+3 levels and touch range).

I'm bracketing off the artifact-affecting ability, which I think is silly, anyway. What would the LotR have been like if Galadriel had just taken her time trying to disjoin the One Ring? Assuming she's an epic caster she would have been able to do it in under a minute (4 prepared slots plus a few scrolls), unless she rolled really poorly.

The point of disjunction is not to destroy items (in fact, its loot-destroying feature is probably a balancing factor that discourages its use). Rather, it is its ability to eliminate buffs, summonings and environment controlling spells from a broad area.

Re: Blasphemy
The big selling point of blasphemy specifically is its ability to deny actions. If you have a creature who can use it every round then opponents have no chance of acting. That's my take on it; paralyzing or killing things is an amusing side benefit.

But yeah. Slaying balors and such is too much for a holy word. Multiple CR 20 threats should require more than a single word to deal with.

This (dreadfully verbose) version doesn't cap blasphemy, but has less effect on creatures with lots of HD. No matter the caster level. a monster with 25HD treats it as save negates. Risen balors are dazed by 30th level casters unless they make their save.

Blasphemy
Evocation [Evil, Sonic]

Level: Clr 7, Evil 7
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 40 ft.
Area: Nonevil creatures in a 40-ft.-radius spread centered on you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None or Will partial or Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

Any nonevil creature within the area of a blasphemy spell suffers the following ill effects.

• Creatures whose Hit Dice exceed your caster level are unaffected by blasphemy.
• Creatures whose HD exceed (your caster level -5) but do not exceed your caster level and who fail their saving throw are dazed and weakened. If they have at least 10 HD and succeed in their saving throw they are not weakened, and if they have at least 15 HD and succeed in their saving throw they are not dazed either.
• Creatures whose HD exceed (your caster level -10) but do not exceed (your caster level -5) and who fail their saving throw are dazed, weakened and paralyzed. If they have at least 10 HD and succeed in their saving throw they are not paralyzed; if they have at least 15 HD and succeed in their saving throw they are not weakened, and if they have at least 20 HD and succeed in their saving throw they are not dazed either.
• Creatures whose HD do not exceed (your caster level -10) are dazed, weakened, paralyzed and killed with no saving throw unless they have at least 10 HD. If they have at least 10 HD and succeed in their saving throw they are not killed; if they have at least 15 HD and succeed in their saving throw they are not paralyzed; if they have at least 20 HD and succeed in their saving throw they are not weakened, and if they have at least 25 HD and succeed in their saving throw they are not dazed either.

Dazed
The creature can take no actions for 1 round, though it defends itself normally.

Weakened
The creature’s Strength score decreases by 2d6 points for 2d4 rounds.

Paralyzed
The creature is paralyzed and helpless for 1d10 minutes.

Killed
Living creatures die. Undead creatures are destroyed.

Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, nonevil extraplanar creatures within the area whose HD do not exceed your caster level are instantly banished back to their home planes if they fail their saves. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the blasphemy.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

More thoughts regarding Metamagic Freedom:

Let's assume that we 'blunt' AMC for a moment, and require casters who prepare spells to take an anciliary feat in their early 20s before they can access it.

What if we make the ability to stack metamagic with AMC only one of a variety of techniques opened up by MF? Some possible techniques, available with varying numbers of ranks in the Spellcraft skill which we would have to determine:

• Allow the caster to apply Heighten with spells to 9th level, even without the prerequisite feat. Heighten Spell would still be required to increase the spell's level beyond this.
• Allow the caster to Empower a small number of carefully selected spells whose descriptions include non-variable terms.
• Allow a caster to use a wish or limited wish to duplicate metamagicked spells of lower level - he still pays the XP cost. The metamagic is applied to the level of the duplicating spell.
• Allow a caster to Quicken spells with a 1 full round casting time - say with a +2 metamagic level surcharge.
• Allow a caster to apply the Widen Spell feat to an area not normally subject to this metamagic - e.g. a cone, or a number of 10-ft. cubes.
• Allow a caster to apply the Widen Spell feat to effects which specify areas - such as mirage arcana.
• Allow a caster to stack existing metamagic feats and cast multiple Quickened spells, as current version

 

[Greybar]

Is there any definition of what an artifact really is, anyway?
If I was an epic player, I'd want to start defining my new creations as artifacts at some point, if that's all it takes to shut down the MDJ - especially since just having an artifact on my person is enough to threatened to permanently remove my opponent's spellcasting ability...

Maybe all epic characters should find their way to a Deck of Many Things and make sure that all of their opponents know they have it - kind of a nuclear deterrence against enemy MDJs...

 

[Sepulchrave II]

The point of disjunction is not to destroy items (in fact, its loot-destroying feature is probably a balancing factor that discourages its use). Rather, it is its ability to eliminate buffs, summonings and environment controlling spells from a broad area.

I believe the original intent of MDJ - in an era when buff-madness was nonexistent - was to destroy magic items. The point regarding disintegrate is valid, however. If the artifact-destroying ability were removed, the version I posted above would probably be balanced as a 5th level spell with limited utility.

Edit: And if I were Sauron, I'd have slapped a permanent disjunction ward on my ring.

Edit: Can disintegrate destroy magic items? The wording of the spell leaves room for ambiguity - it includes the dreaded word 'effect.'

 

[Cheiromancer]

Edit: Can disintegrate destroy magic items? The wording of the spell leaves room for ambiguity - it includes the dreaded word 'effect.'

Well, it can affect objects. It's a ray, so I don't see why it couldn't be aimed at something currently in someone's possession.

And regarding artifacts; was a deck of many things considered an artifact back when Unearthed Arcana was released? My suspicion is that when they say artifact, they mean the real thing. Kinda how Pluto is a "dwarf planet" but is not a "planet". "Dwarf planet" is a whole other category, not a sub-category of planet. In a similar way, a "minor artifact" might not count as an "artifact." Mind you, they are under the Artifact heading in the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm.

A DoMT might work, then. Problem is that they are notorious for destroying campaigns in which they are introduced. A philosopher's stone is probably better.

[edit]
Re: Ancillary feat

Some kind of "metamagic flexibility" feat? That would make sense. I think I would prefer that it add the benefits of Improved Heighten to Heighten Spell rather than replace the Heighten Spell entirely. I like the other features too. How about adding +0 level metamagic feats on the fly? Elemental Substitutions and such.

You need to double quicken a spell (+8 levels) to cast it if you've already used a swift action, right? Eventually we should figure out what the level adjustment is for immediate action spells. And for free action (on your turn) and free action (at any time) casting times.

A thread on the board brought up the question of emulating psychic reformation with a limited wish (this assumes psionic-magical transparency, of course). You could change all your feat and skill choices for the past 6 levels with the 300 xp cost of limited wish, and with a standard action. (Faster if you quicken it). Or pay a little more xp if you want to change your choices further back. Matt could turn into Jake or Thomas at a moment's notice if we allowed this.

Can (limited) wishes allow one to jump from one career path to another in this way?

[edit2]

Stacked Extend Spells rock. A wizard can double-extend his shapechange at bed-time and know that he will be difficult to ambush until the next morning. I suppose he'll still be vulnerable when preparing spells; that's a class ability, and you can't use those while shapechanged. Multiply extended mind blanks can give you days of protection with one expenditure of a spell slot.

I thought I found a nice combo with Delay Spell and time stop, but the random length of time stop messes it up.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

A note on disintegrate and magic items...

I don't know that there is an official stance on this or not... It may be something to refer to the guys in the Rules forum... In general, though, I rule that, since a touch attack spell has only to touch any part of a creature or anything that a creature is holding or wearing... spells that require touch attacks cannot be used to affect an object that is held or worn by any creature... A successful touch attack against the object is also a successful touch attack against the creature, which means that a spell that can affect any creature or object (such as disintegrate) will automatically default to the creature...

I hope that helps. This is quite an interesting discussion and I am quite looking forward to whatever might come out of it.

Later
silver

 

[Cheiromancer]

I posted the question as you suggested, Michael, and got a quick reply back from Hypersmurf. It seems you can indeed disintegrate a held item. See Hypersmurf's response here.

I've also posted a question about shapechange in the rules forum. As I posted it I realized that this spell doesn't give a temporary hit point bonus like dragonshape does. That is an important difference. Our epic seed does give temporary hit points like the spells in the dragonshape suite, and these would be renewed every time you changed shape. Since you can change shape to the one you currently have as a swift action, this means for a mature adult red dragon that you could replenish a pool of 6hp/HD every round. If you had all the flexibility options.

This is a heck of a lot better than shapechange in the book. Maybe that spell is not quite as bad as I thought it was.

***

What's left on our "to do" list? We need to see what Matt is going to be able to do for the next few levels so we have an idea what Jake should be able to do. Is there anything else we need to do before that happens?

***

A very cool idea by frankthedm:

What I want to see is a spell with a somatic component so demanding the caster must be Hasted to do it properly and the Verbal component requires such forceful speaking a quickened Shout is needed.

I'd love it if we could incorporate these ideas somewhere. Perhaps in one of those specialized feats.


***

Re monster benchmarks:
I'm going to attach the excel file I've been using- not that it is terribly improved over the last one (though it has a few more monsters), but just so I have access to it when I'm not at my home computer.

[edit] Moved to the characters thread

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I posted the question as you suggested, Michael, and got a quick reply back from Hypersmurf. It seems you can indeed disintegrate a held item.

I am happy to accept this rule as authoritative. The question now becomes 'do we need to house-rule the effect of disintegrate?'

i.e.

• If it is effective against normal items, does disintegrate work on magic items?
• Does it work on epic magic items?
• Does it work on minor artifacts?
• I'm assuming we can agree it doesn't work on major artifacts (?)

AFAICT, only major artifacts possess any special immunity to normal means of destruction. It's reasonable to assume they transcend normal magic. Could one smash the One Ring with a hammer, whilst standing in an antimagic field?

What's left on our "to do" list? We need to see what Matt is going to be able to do for the next few levels so we have an idea what Jake should be able to do.

Sounds good. I'll leave SF and GSF in for now - Matt's got every core pre-epic metamagic feat anyway. We might have some purchasing disagreements - let me know if anything strikes you as incongruous. I'm also assuming Matt will be getting a 100% return on old items he trades in - I kind of have to, really. I'd planned on leaving his spell choices blank, although I should probably include a #per day line!

A very cool idea by frankthedm:

Quote:
What I want to see is a spell with a somatic component so demanding the caster must be Hasted to do it properly and the Verbal component requires such forceful speaking a quickened Shout is needed.

I'd love it if we could incorporate these ideas somewhere. Perhaps in one of those specialized feats.

Nice. Or a spell which demands a power word, or a holy word. Which reminds me

Re: Blasphemy
The big selling point of blasphemy specifically is its ability to deny actions. If you have a creature who can use it every round then opponents have no chance of acting. That's my take on it; paralyzing or killing things is an amusing side benefit.

For a high-level cleric (or half-celestial paladin) who has only prepared one holy word, the timing of its use is vital - to kill/paralyze/banish as many opponents as possible.

Only the balor gets blasphemy as an at-will SLA in the core rules; death slaad gets word of chaos 3/day - in fact (I may be wrong, I haven't checked), I think no other creature has blasphemy, dictum, holy word or word of chaos anywhere in its armamentarium. Epic monsters are a different kettle of fish, of course, which is why the -10 CL effect has to be dropped - especially given the range of opponents' HD.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Pit fiends can use blasphemy at will, too.

I am happy to accept this rule as authoritative. The question now becomes 'do we need to house-rule the effect of disintegrate?'

i.e.

• If it is effective against normal items, does disintegrate work on magic items?
• Does it work on epic magic items?
• Does it work on minor artifacts?
• I'm assuming we can agree it doesn't work on major artifacts (?)

AFAICT, only major artifacts possess any special immunity to normal means of destruction. It's reasonable to assume they transcend normal magic. Could one smash the One Ring with a hammer, whilst standing in an antimagic field?

The main difference between magic items and normal items is that magic items get a save even if unattended. I'd say yes to the first question. I'd agree that you can't disintegrate a major artifact. Or smash it with a hammer under any circumstances.

The SRD says that "Unlike all other magic items, major artifacts are not easily destroyed. Each should have only a single, specific means of destruction." Which suggests that minor artifacts *are* easily destroyed, and so shouldn't be immune to disintegrate. Many of them disappear when used; a DoMT might in fact be immune to destruction, but attempts to do so cause the deck to disappear.

Epic magic items... I am not aware of any rule to this effect, but I'd think that they deserve to be substantially more robust than conventional items. Treat them as being made out of adamantine, at least. And give them a, I don't know, +10 bonus on their saves. Minor artifacts can be treated this way too, but it is not as urgent to protect your philosopher's stone as it is to protect your +15 armor.

Sounds good. I'll leave SF and GSF in for now - Matt's got every core pre-epic metamagic feat anyway. We might have some purchasing disagreements - let me know if anything strikes you as incongruous. I'm also assuming Matt will be getting a 100% return on old items he trades in - I kind of have to, really. I'd planned on leaving his spell choices blank, although I should probably include a #per day line!

Those two feats could be placeholders for people to put in something else that strikes their fancy; Energy Substitution, maybe. The defensive array of high level characters is often talked about. We've talked about some kind of death ward item; he probably needs something for freedom of movement too. A quickened still dimension door would work, I suppose, to get out of grapples; and as he gets more AMC he can use a relatively low spell slot.