Epic Magic Big Thread

[Sepulchrave II]

Took me a minute to follow you there. 1,660,000 gp, right?

Actually, I just eyeballed it in a rhetorical fervour and took a guess. It should be

+10 armor bonus 1,000,000 (epic multiplier)
+6 bonus to saves 360,000 (epic multiplier)
SR50 380,000
+4 bonus to overcome SR 24000

Total = 1,764,000

Which would be a #1 item for a 42nd level character. AFAIK, robes don't incur the +50% surcharge for additional abilities, and pretty much anything is considered to have an affinity with the robe slot. Maybe CR+8 is a better becnchmark for suitability anyway.

The cost of SR is problematic - no doubt about it: it's too expensive below level 20 (CR+3 is piddling) and too cheap afterwards. But it's only one of a host of abilities which we would discover as badly costed if we entered into a thorough analysis, and our jacobean inquiries would languish for months if we allowed ourselves to be sidetracked by it: you wisely suggested that we don't retool epic monsters; I would suggest the same for magic item costs. Perhaps we can add it to the massive list of things to fix in 'the other thread' when it manifests.

Our real problem here is that *all* the official systems are wildly inaccurate when extrapolated into epic levels. UK's system has its flaws, but it is better, imho, than the WotC system.

I remember the optimism I had for UK's system when it was first floated in Asgard, and the frustration I felt when it became (in my view) too contrived and complex. There are too many arbitrary values (why is an energy drain breath weapon 0.4 x 4 CR, not 0.3 x 3.6 or 0.5 x 4.5?) and a lot of its former elegance has been lost. And it makes the assumption that CR can ever be anything other than a very rough guide at best, even pre-epic.

For me, the greatest selling point of the earliest iterations was simply their implicit assertion that whether the challenge that your 40th-level characters faced was a CR 30 or a CR 50 didn't matter so much - you could still wind up dead, or kicking its ass. This was useful to me - my campaign was going epic, and I'd already figured out that WotC CRs were a crock.

I like UK's wealth guidelines not because I necessarily view them as more balanced per se, but because they're easy to remember and don't produce quite the stupid money that WotC does. Truth be told, I'd have preferred it if WotC's original wealth progression past lvl 20 had been linear, and they'd costed items to reflect this. Or just moved to a more abstract method of measuring wealth altogether - 'favours' attempted to do this, but only halfheartedly. If the value of all epic items had been measured in favours, at least it would have moved things away from the absurd notion that an epic weapon has a real value - and that value is greater than the GDP of a continental empire.

Anyway, I digress. Apparently my rant mode is still on, so I'll shut up.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Just read the sidebar on ELH 29 again, I've been confused.

A character can have no item worth more than 25%.

He can have no more than 3 items worth more than 10%. Does this mean he can have 3 items at 25%? Is his most expensive item included in these 3 items? I'd figured on only 1 item worth more than 10%, but I guess a character can have 3 x #1 items. All of his other items are #2s, and can't be worth more than 10%.

 

[Cheiromancer]

We do seem to be moving sideways on the epic spell-system. Or systems, since we are working on the metamagic system as well (with AMC, and MF, and metamagic flexibility, and staggered prerequisites, and expanding the remit of Empower and... and...). Trying to handle monsters and treasure as well is perhaps too ambitious. But it's not like epic spells can be designed without a thought to these dimensions of the game.

It's too much trying to make sense of the whole picture. If we have a few islands of clarity it should be enough. Take something we like and say *this* is balanced. And balance other game elements with it as a reference point.

I like the cubic wealth by level guidelines; I suggest we keep it. I like the guideline that characters will have one primary item at 25% of their wealth, and three secondary items worth 10% of their wealth. I like the general notion that benefits are priced according to the square of the numeric benefit they offer. I like the idea that a spell can emulate an item (at least for a short time) several levels before the item is affordable. I like UK's system for estimating ECLS, though the exact way they are translated into CRs can be fiddled with.

Given these principles, a few benchmark items can be used to provide a basis for extrapolation. They may use formulas that are dubious, but that's OK. Take that periapt- it seems to be an anti-[harrow] device. How about we multiply the cost of a continuous death ward by an appropriate amount to broaden the scope of the protection; i.e. it starts with protection from death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and negative energy effects, and we extend the protection to ability damage, ability drain, disease, exhaustion, fatigue and poison. But not curses; the anti-[afflict] device could be a separate item. And one that also uses the periapt slot. Maybe include a bonus to Constitution. And/or Fortitude saves as well, although I don't see its role as foiling polymorph and petrification effects. So not too much of a bonus in these areas. I think the resulting item should be between 250 000 gp and 500 000 gp, depending on its power. And it would make a fine benchmark.

Based on it a mind blank item can be interpolated. Perhaps with a built-in wisdom bonus. This should be straightforward; mind blank is a spell that basically works like a magic item anyway. It should be available at around the same time as the periapt (I don't particular like the name "epic resilience" - how about "indomitable life"?)

I like the ring of energy immunity. Although it basically nerfs the [blast] and [field] seeds, it is expensive enough to justify its power. Now we are starting to get the notion that any offensive seed can be warded against, although the cost might vary from 200,000 to 2 million gp. A continuous mind blank item, priced right out of the blue book for 240,000 gp would be on the low end; the anti-[harrow] periapt is a bit more expensive; the ring of energy immunity would be quite a bit more expensive still. Something that provided immunity to transmutations would be lower than energy immunity. But something that provided an antimagic field that did not hinder one's own items and spells would be very, very expensive. By the time you could afford it you'd be dealing with godlike creatures to whom an antimagic field is only an inconvenience.

The abilities of monstrous opponents can provide some guidance here. Creatures immune to mind-affecting spells have been around for a while; giving the same ability to PCs shouldn't be destabilizing. Undead and constructs also have a slough of immunities; PCs should eventually get the same thing. Not too many creatures are immune to all forms of energy; that ability should be later and more expensive. Ditto with immunity to weapons- swarms are all that come to mind. That should be even more expensive.

The basic anti-seed items would become available in the 20s and 30s, but it would be level 40 or 50 or higher before characters would be able to have many of these as secondary or tertiary items. By that time the arms race will have provided offensive countermeasures. Like the +8 spell level Despicable Spell metamagic feat I suggest above. I would suggest that there be around 10 levels during which protection can be provided by a spell (in minutes, usually) and then 10 levels where the equivalent continuous item is dominant, then about 10 levels where a spell-based countermeasure is dominant, and so on. A spellcaster won't be adding Despicable Spell via AMC until he's in his late 30s or so. By the time that characters are in their their early 50s they should be able to blink out of the time-stream long enough to avoid nasty effects. But casters in their 60s will be able to send their spells to their foes across time and space... and so on. Rules for divinity will trump these rules by this time (and anyway, 50 is basically the limit for what we are designing for), and it is to be hoped that the Immortal's Handbook won't be in quite so rough a shape by then.

Anyway, that's the general picture that I'm conceiving. For spells like [afflict] we should focus on elementary effects, those that can be cast by 21st or 24th level spellcasters. More powerful effects will either be with monstrous foes in mind (since equal level NPCs would probably be immune) or have modifiers designed to punch through protections. But the modifiers would be so expensive that the resulting effect would be quite elementary, perhaps even non-epic. Imagine a version of mummy rot, normally a 5th level spell or so, but which is resistant even to disjunctions and wishes, continues to progress even in dead magic areas, and follows the afflicted soul even from body to body despite reincarnations and magic jars. Maybe possessing a construct or undead body would foil it. A wild guess (based on the arms race theory just sketched) would put this in the repetoire of a 40-something level caster. But my intuition for such things isn't as good as yours.

This is just part of the picture, drawn with broad strokes, and focussing on the whole acquiring immunity/bypassing immunity arms race. Our whole debate about the damage curve for [blast] is another part of the picture. Once we have enough such pictures the task of implementing it with seeds and factors should be much clearer.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Just read the sidebar on ELH 29 again, I've been confused.

A character can have no item worth more than 25%.

He can have no more than 3 items worth more than 10%. Does this mean he can have 3 items at 25%? Is his most expensive item included in these 3 items? I'd figured on only 1 item worth more than 10%, but I guess a character can have 3 x #1 items. All of his other items are #2s, and can't be worth more than 10%.

I took it as meaning that there's one item at 25% (or thereabouts; the campaign won't collapse if it is 28% of his wealth), three items at 10%, and the remaining 45% in "tertiary items" worth, say, up to 5%. Including cash, scrolls, etc.. With equipment valued at a million or more these "small change" items would be 50,000 gp each. Or maybe property; as a 32nd level character you might carry 2 million around on you and have 1 million invested in houses, businesses and the estate where you raise race-horses.

At higher levels UK prefers to stat up four 25% items for each epic character. But I don't see this as a major issue. Whether you have one item worth 30% of your wealth or three items worth 10% each doesn't make much difference, if they grant the same suite of abilities and protections.

[edit] I've been confused too. (I blame you ) It *does* permit three 25% items, with the rest in small change. I think organic character development would make the 1 x 25% + 3 x 10% equipment profile appear more natural, though.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

[edit] I've been confused too. (I blame you ) It *does* permit three 25% items, with the rest in small change. I think organic character development would make the 1 x 25% + 3 x 10% equipment profile appear more natural, though.

I dunno. Problem is that epic characters are seldom organic, and players will probably be min-maxing to the hilt, so we should as well. I've done Matt to level 30 - he always seems to have an awful lot of spare cash, which would suggest that his items aren't beefy enough. See what you think. I won't go any further, but I'm wondering whether 3 x 25% items might be better. I'm biased, though, as I generally prefer fewer, more powerful items to lots of minor ones.

 

[Cheiromancer]

With boots of swiftness he should get a move of 60, right? And the evasion special quality? I think you should start including Tumble in the stat blocks; with that +20 bonus and that speed he might start running around inside of threatened areas.

I don't think his cash reserves are excessive; less than 1/6 of his wealth. Wands and scrolls would be part of it, and unstatted magic items of relatively trivial value (up to a few thousand gold pieces each). A figurine of wondrous power, rope of climbing, a brace of +1 adamantine daggers... after a while they add up. And part of it will be treasure recently acquired while adventuring, that have not yet been cashed in to buy items with. And how many spells does he have in boccob's blessed book? If he's anything like my players he's always scrounging for spells above and beyond the two free spells he gets every level.

Anyway, I like it. I'm especially gratified that Matt's saves are commensurate with his save DCs. If he encounters his double by surprise and casts a heightened flesh to stone (with a 7th level slot) there is about a 50/50 chance of surviving. And I'm glad he's finally got MF. Now he can go around with a foresight up that lasts almost all day. Or a mind blank that lasts a week. Barring hostile dispels, of course.

Should we start defining what a Jacobean mage can do? I'm interested in seeing how much wealth gets eaten up by epic spell research. When we consider the effectiveness of a particular spell, we can see what might be in Matt's arsenal to match it.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

With boots of swiftness he should get a move of 60, right? And the evasion special quality?

Wow. I'd completely missed the evasion. Those boots are a steal at 256K.

Should we start defining what a Jacobean mage can do? I'm interested in seeing how much wealth gets eaten up by epic spell research. When we consider the effectiveness of a particular spell, we can see what might be in Matt's arsenal to match it.

Sure. Maybe you could patch Jake into the post below Matt - we can keep them on the same page, literally and figuratively.

All this talk of magic items has got me wondering about an item specialist. Utilitarian. Master Staff. Additional Item Space. That kind of thing. I wonder about Additional Item Space, though - I've a suspicion it may break pretty early as a feat. Before 50th.


Random/

I was looking at the 1e DMG, where some rings of wizardry double spells of more than one level, and musing about prices.

A ring which doubles all spell levels (1st through 9th) should cost

810K + 1.5 x (640K + 490K + 360K + 250K + 100K + 70K + 40K + 20K)

= 3,765,000

which is a tidy sum. Nice for a 55th level wizard, though.

 

[Cheiromancer]

810K + 1.5 x (640K + 490K + 360K + 250K + 100K + 70K + 40K + 20K)

= 3,765,000

Ok, if this isn't a case of "Multiple Similar abilities" (DMG 282) what is? It should be

810K + 0.75 x 640K + 0.5 x (490K + 360K + 250K +100K + 70K + 40K + 20K)

= 1,955,000

Still a tidy sum. A major item for a 43rd level wizard.

Wow. I'd completely missed the evasion. Those boots are a steal at 256K.

Well, a ring of evasion is only 25K. Heck, a ring of freedom of movement is only 40K. Too bad Matt's ring slots are already claimed. I wonder if it is worth taking Additional Magic Item Space for?

I love the name "utilitarian" for an item specialist. It also sounds like a great idea for a prestige class. One ability should be to get multiple AMIS feats for the ring and necklace slots. I don't understand how AMIS works for things like boots; do you wear a mismatched set and still get the benefit? Could someone else with the AMIS feat wear the other pair?

I wonder if we should put Matt's various incarnations over in the rules forum for comments. Part of the difficulty is that we are stuck with core materials. An actual campaign would probably use the Complete books (or big chunks of them). But if people suggest non-core builds we can at least get an idea of how much better they'll be than core Matt.

Maybe you could patch Jake into the post below Matt - we can keep them on the same page, literally and figuratively.

I've cleared a space for Jake. It's nice that these characters are at the top of the page. Is 20th level Jake the same as 20th level Matt? What formula are we going to use for the costs of epic spell research? Is he going to take HUMF feats, or just Epic Spellcasting?

[edit] How about multiple pearls of power instead of a ring of wizardry. Instead of +4 slots for 490K he can get +10 slots. They have to be of spells he's prepared and cast that day, and they take a round to restore, but it still seems a much better value. Plus it frees up a ring slot.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Ok, if this isn't a case of "Multiple Similar abilities" (DMG 282) what is?

I think the 'multiple similar abilities' method only applies to unslotted items like staves. I've always used the 'adding new abilities' method for slotted items (p. 288). It doesn't matter whether they're similar or not - only the power's affinity with the slot counts.

Boots of swiftness are trickier. If they were a 3.5 item, I suspect they'd only increase your land speed by 10 ft. to avoid Monk-insanity. I'd price them thus:

+20 Climb (wrong slot, x 1.5.) =60,000
+6 Dex (wrong slot, x1.5, 2ndary x1.5.) = 81,000
Evasion (from ring of evasion. Probably wrong slot x1.5. 2ndary x 1.5) = 56,250
+10 ft. (right slot. 2ndary. from boots of striding and springing) = 8250
+20 Jump (right slot. 2ndary) = 60,000
+20 Tumble (right slot, 2ndary) = 60,000
+20 Balance (right slot, 2ndary) = 60,000

Total = 385.5K.

And that's with a pair of boots that don't double your base speed, only increase it by 10 ft.

It's pretty arbitrary, because it assumes that evasion is a 'quickness' rather than 'movement' affinity. But climbing is definitely a 'hands' thing - gloves of swimming and climbing are priced at affinity, which means boots would not be. +20 to the climbing score would be the most expensive primary function.

Anyway.

I've cleared a space for Jake. It's nice that these characters are at the top of the page. Is 20th level Jake the same as 20th level Matt? What formula are we going to use for the costs of epic spell research? Is he going to take HUMF feats, or just Epic Spellcasting?

I'd split him 50/50 on Humf and Epic Spellcasting, at least at first. We can see where we're at, then. I'd use USP x 1000, and see where it lands us.

[edit] How about multiple pearls of power instead of a ring of wizardry. Instead of +4 slots for 490K he can get +10 slots. They have to be of spells he's prepared and cast that day, and they take a round to restore, but it still seems a much better value. Plus it frees up a ring slot.

Sounds good.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I think the 'multiple similar abilities' method only applies to unslotted items like staves. I've always used the 'adding new abilities' method for slotted items (p. 288). It doesn't matter whether they're similar or not - only the power's affinity with the slot counts.

You are absolutely right. That's what it says on page 282. But it is a very odd rule, if you think about it; adding the ability to a slotless item costs double, but if the ability is similar to the abilities already present you halve it, so the base multiplier is 1. However if you add it to a slotted item you have to multiply by 1.5. And if the affinity is lacking you multiply by an additional 1.5, for a total of 2.25; more than the cost of adding it to a slotless item! You'd be better off enchanting a separate slotless item; then it would only cost twice as much.

For instance, suppose you are pricing a talisman of supreme wizardry - it's just like your ring of wizardry in that it doubles all spells, but it is slotless. All prices are double, but the second most expensive ability is multiplied by 0.75 (net result 1.5) and the third and subsequent abilities are halved (net result 1.0) as per page 282. It would cost

2 x 810K + 1.5 x 640K + 490K + 360K + 250K + 100K + 70K + 40K + 20K = 3,910,000

Only 4% more expensive than the ring of wizardry, despite the fact that the talisman doesn't use a precious ring slot.

I must be misunderstanding the rules somehow; how would you price it?

Or a pearl of power that can be used more than once per day; it's a slotless item and you can't get more similar than identity; would the second use get a 25% discount, and subsequent uses a 50% discount? That doesn't seem right.

I'm confused.