Epic Magic Big Thread

[Cheiromancer]

Well, by the book turning yourself into a lich is expensive, though it would make more sense for that cost to be the power component, perhaps. The cost difference between being able to do this only for yourself, or then for all your lackeys, is one that would naturally draw attention.

The main cost seems to be the phylactery; 120 000 gp and the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The MM entry suggests that if you make a phylactery you become a lich automatically. Ascent to Lichdom would allow you to turn lackeys into liches, but they would be liches without phylacteries, which limits their power greatly. Better than a necropolitan, I suppose, but not quite as good as true liches.

I've never understood why lich characters have a LA. Characters who spend a lot of time and money crafting magic items will be more powerful than characters who haven't, but they don't get a LA. Why should a character who makes a phylactery get a LA?

I was also mulling that permanently shapechanging yourself is a parallel track. With a flexibility factor built into the design for the final form (and its CR), this could quickly lead to a caster making a spell so that they can boost up their physical self to a new, more powerful form every time they gain more Spellcraft. So let's say you're level 22, shapechange yourself into a CR28 creature (LA6+ChL22), work hard to gain a level and the riches/sacrificial-targets to cast the spell again to get yourself to be a CR30 (LA7+ChLvl23), repeat. Everytime you visit this character, it seems, he is in a new form and eagerly working to research what is next form should be. It is perhaps a more complicated approach to the fortify-seed approach to increasing power, but quickly stepping to a form with a longer lifespan (human -> drow, for instance) has its appeal as well.

The key to the transmorgrification spells (instantaneous transformations) seems to be here. I don't think LA is relevant, though. A caster's CR doesn't change because of spells he casts (summonings, buffs, etc.); it shouldn't change because of any spells he casts on himself. If his CR doesn't change, I don't see why his LA should change. Though maybe he should have to spend xp (like Sep's formula for permanent spells). That would make a lot of sense; it's like paying 25 000 xp to get a +5 inherent bonus. Or like paying off a LA according to the UA rules.

I could easily see characters acquiring celestial/half-celestial templates, or becoming half-dragons or fey or whatever. In fact Eadric and Ortwin(e) are both prime examples. Having epic magic mediate these changes seems sensible enough.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Random Stuff.

Concerns re: the permathrall are noted. You've got me thinking about permanencies & contingencies as well.

The original 'contingent upon trigger' factor was +20 (from contingency at SP = 2 x spell level +10). As we're dealing with 2 x level +4 now, this would equate to a +14 SP factor.

I would suggest making a +15 factor for 'contingent effect:' this isn't entirely baseless. Consider a hypothetical [contingency] seed - one of the predicted benefits of such a seed would be that its effects extend to affect epic spells.

A [contingency] seed might be SP 30: 14 (5th-level) +6 (10 mins -> 1 action casting) + 6 (at 2SP per additional spell level capable of being made contingent above 6th to 9th) + 4 (extend remit to [epic] effects). But if the [contingency] seed is acting in the manner of a secondary seed, it should incur half of this SP value - i.e. +15. It should also have a maximum duration of 20 days, through the contingency spell. If you were to include a range factor (personal -> 1200 ft.), then the vale of a contingent factor would rise to +20: I'm not sure whether this is desirable; +15 is probably enough.

*

When I initially suggested the 250 xp. / +1 SP for permanence, I excluded the 'make spell permanent' factor because I was anticipating higher SPs across the board: a lot of seed-tightening has occurred since then, and I'm thinking maybe it should be included.

The [permanency] seed might be SP 32: 14 (5th-level) +4 (reduce casting time) +10 (sweeping flexibility from permanency), +4 (extend seed to epic effects). As it would effectively be a secondary seed, it should also be half of this value as a factor - i.e. +16.

A +16 factor would merely allow the spell to be made permanent, with a subsequent investment in XP. You are charging twice for the permanency, once in spell development, and once again in the added XP cost - but like I said, when I was considering the original formula, I hadn't anticipated so many useful spells available at SP 24 without mitigation. 250xp/+1 SP should stand - but all permanency effects are effectively raised by 4000xp across the board. At a minimum USP of 40, the baseline for making an epic spell permanent would start at a nice, round 10,000 XP.

*

This, in turn got me thinking about base seeds, secondary seeds and descriptive seeds, and how they should fit together. The mitigating factor to the [compel] component of call Graz'zt had been bugging me - it's way wonky.

There's a variety of ways of addressing this, and I think the simplest way is to reduce the value of a descriptive seed to +6. Not because of call Graz'zt, though.

I have to say that I think that adding half the value of a secondary seed is right. If you were to combine [call] and [compel], say, to use the full value of each seed would be analogous to making delayed blast fireball a 14th-level spell. If you consider the [compel] seed a metamagic effect applied to [call] - metamagic is necessarily inefficient - then you'd expect the SPs to simply stack. But its not metamagic, its a new spell (of a higher 'level') which is more efficient than the simple sum of its component parts. If half-factors work (I think they're a pretty good model), then half of the SP value of a secondary seed should work as well.

It's nonsensical to mitigate a secondary seed to the point where it's cheaper than a descriptive seed, and we've defined already that a -6 limitation is a 'major limitation.' We don't have the option of saying 'mitigating a secondary seed uses half the normal mitigating factor.' Effectively, this equates a descriptive seed with a 'secondary seed which suffers a major or greater limitation.' I'm not saying that every secondary seed which is mitigated by 6 points automatically becomes a descriptive seed, but I would suggest that no matter now much its effectiveness is reduced, its value cannot be reduced to less than 6. I'm talking about internal seed factors here (specifically limitations), rather than generic mitigating factors (such as rituals).

That said, it might be interesting to say that the minimum SP of a spell is = 24 +6/additional seed. It would delay 2-seed spells to 27th level, 3-seed spells to 33rd level, and probably many aggregates to 39th level.

If a descriptive seed is just that - descriptive - then it should not be subject to any factors at all.

Incidentally, I've used the term compound spell to refer to any epic spell which contains 2 or more seeds, as opposed to single-seed spell. (Imaginative, eh?) I have no attachment to either term, something flashier is fine. I draw a distinction between compound spells and aggregates: compound spells obey the regular laws of construction, aggregates somehow twist or bypass them; they obey a higher set of laws. If deific magic routinely used aggregates, it would explain a lot.

Trying to capture aggregates mechanically is tricky, but I'd like to try. Ideally, I'd like a set of principles which underpin them, which make them replicable. At least one of each aggregate's parameters is whacky - if [weather] combines with [afflict] in a normal compound spell, target trumps area, 1200 feet trumps 2 miles, 200 minutes trumps 48 hours, etc. and the result is pretty lame. With an aggregate, the [afflict] seed is superimposed onto [weather] and everyone within 2 miles is blinded - or whatever. One of the spell's parameters (in this case, a massive area effect vs. a single target) prevails when it shouldn't.

Maybe the thing which distinguishes aggregates should be that each possesses some kind of 'dominant parameter;' perhaps they could all be rendered sensible in that light.

I dunno. Just random stuff.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Not just random stuff. Random *brilliant* stuff, Sep.

Very good insights. If you just agreed with me regarding the [life] seed I'd say you were a genius.

[edit] It would be nice if you got the xp back when your permanent epic spell was dispelled. Even if the recovery was gradual; 1000 xp per day or something. That's with the +15 seed. You could call it an "investiture".

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Re: Goetic Magician


Just a few initial thoughts.

I think it would be pretty straightforward to extend this to a 10-level PrC; I'm not sure if you wanted to or not.

I'd consider dropping Skill Focus (Knowledge) and the Diplomacy prereqs and instead use the Negotiator feat as a prereq, but up the prereq Knowledge ranks to 12. A single-classed wizard could still qualify at level 9. You could make charm monster explicit in the requirement.

Goetia seems rather vague and subject to DM interpretation; it might be nice to tighten it a little bit. I'd ground it with a rules effect (like charm monster) - not that this is really any less vague, but at least it's a known referent.

Thinking in terms of the charm monster angle (just pulling sh*t off the top of my head here), why not allow an ability which ties charm monster to the planar binding along with the dimansional anchor (and magic circle against evil): a creature is charmed when it arrives, if it fails its Will save. You'd probably need some kind of control on this; it sounds abusable.

How about allowing a bonus to opposed Cha checks via planar binding negotiations: +2 would mirror a Negotiator feat prereq.

How about an ability which allows the caster to drop the alignment descriptor of a summon monster or planar binding spell when it's used to call [evil] creatures? Otherwise, casting lots of [evil] spells is going to make you evil, fast.

I don't know that Fiendish Luck is appropriate - if the mage is coercing/cajoling the fiend, there doesn't seem to be any particular reason why he or she should be 'favoured.'

Sceptical about 'Lesser Gate' - I think the additional +6HD from Goetic Mastery is enough. Lesser Gate would be a 500 xp spell at level 15. I suspect that this would smash a game pretty fast. I'd drop this one altogether.

 

[Greybar]

thought from the morning commute

This going to seem to start off as an non-Epic Magic thing, but it comes back to it, I promise.

Bookkeeping. The bane of many players, particularly at high levels. Do really care what orisons my 35th level cleric has memorized? If my 35th level wizard wants to sit in his library and use mage-hand to retrieve books from the shelves all day long, doesn't that fit the storytelling level of his power? When my blessed saint of the faith walks down the streets, I want healing and blessings to pour forth from his touch effortlessly.

Similarly, do 3rd level spell slots even really matter when epic spellcasters face off? They're hardly worth buffing time. They're just a drag on the system. Now we had a proposal earlier that epic casters should be able to burn lower spell levels slots to mitigate epic spells. At least then they're useful for something. But I have to juggle my numbers - do I still have a 3rd and two 2nd level slots free? Does my epic spell have to specify exactly what lower levels that comes from, and become useless if I accidentially cast one too many 4th level spells?

So...

Improved Spell Capacity*
Prerequisites: Ability to cast 9th level spells, Spellcraft: 24 ranks.
Benefit: When you select this feat, you gain one spell slot per day of any level up to one level higher than the highest-level spell you can already cast in a particular class. You must use the spell slot as a member of the class in which you can already cast 9th level spells. You must still have the requisite ability score (10 + spell level) in order to cast any spell stored in this slot. If you have a high enough ability modifier to gain one or more bonus spells for this spell level, you also gain the bonus spells for this spell level.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take this feat the Spellcraft Prerequisite increases by 3 ranks.

Additional Benefit 1:
When you select this feat, spells of a level 10 lower than the newly gained slot become castable at will, as a Spell-Like Ability. All spells known to the caster are available under this ability, without need for memorization. Indeed, the caster no longer memorizes these spells at all. Thus a wizard21 who takes this feat no longer memorizes cantrips (0 level spells), and can cast any cantrip he knows at will.

Additional Benefit 2:
When you select this feat, spells of a level 8 or more levels lower than the newly gained slot become pooled. The pool has a value equal to the sum of all of the spell slots that meet the criteria - 0 level spells counting as 1/2 level, with final fractions being dropped. The caster no longer memorizes specific spells within the pool, but instead can cast spells that he knows spontaneously, each time subtracting the spell level of the desired spell from the pool. This pool is also used to provide spell levels to mitigate epic spells, with the limitation that he cannot pull more spell levels from the pool at one time than twice the value of his highest level slot. The pool is replenished fulled at the same time that the caster renews his higher level spell slots.

For example, a Wizard 21 of Int 24 who takes this feat no longer memorizes cantrips, 1st level, or 2nd level spells. His pool is 22 spell levels (4x0.5 + 6x1 + 6x2). If he chooses to cast a second level spell, the pool will drop to have 20 levels remaining. If he then casts an epic spell that requires burning 10 spell levels, it drops to have 10 levels remaining.


Upper level impact:
This discussion is targetted at levels 20 to 40, so let's consider a level 40 wizard. He's taken ISC as often as he can (21,24,27,30,33,36,39), and now has slots up to 16th level. He can cast spells of 6th level at will spontaneously - allowing him to teleport at will (just like a outsider of a CR one-quarter his own). He has a spell pool in the neighborhood of 113 spell levels, which he uses to cast 7th and 8th level spells. He can burn a maximum of 32 spell levels out of his pool to fuel each epic spell.

Extensions:
Further feats might allow use of the pool to add metamagic effects, perhaps at a two-for-one exchange rate - spontanteously quickening for 8 spell levels, for instance. The concept is fluid enough to allow such feats to be tuned without the bulky stratifications of spell levels.


thoughts?

 

[Cheiromancer]

Sceptical about 'Lesser Gate' - I think the additional +6HD from Goetic Mastery is enough. Lesser Gate would be a 500 xp spell at level 15. I suspect that this would smash a game pretty fast. I'd drop this one altogether.

The goetic magician loses two levels of spells known and spells/day; that puts her a full spell level behind other casters. So she'd be 17th level and the generalist wizard would be able to cast a real gate. While I'm OK with a generalist being better with the transport function of gate, the calling of outsiders should be the goetic magician's schtick. This special 8th level spell allows her to retain parity. With the summon monster spells she is a little bit ahead... as long as she summons fiends.

The goetic magician has a lot of tools at her disposal. The goetic code of conduct allows her to get willing service from fiends; she can use planar ally spells and there is no penalty for an alignment discrepancy. Or she could go the planar binding route and take a hard line bargaining with them. So she could be the good cop or the bad cop, at her choice.

The classic take on this is that part of the punishment of the fallen angels is that they are made lower than humans; a human can, invoking the divine order, boss them around. But by submitting to the divine will the fiends can actually experience some mitigation of their infernal torment; so it's not a completely bad deal from their point of view. A different approach might be to say that goetic magicians operate outside the good vs. evil paradigm that says that celestials are always on our side and the fiends are always on the other. The trick is to convince fiends of this; they need to regard goetic magicians in a kind of ambivalent way; kind of like how some humans regard infernal nobility as "fierce protectors" or "trickster deities" or whatever. Although they could take play it in a Faustian way too.

However you approach it, I kinda think that planar ally might require an infernal patron of some kind; our discussion has indicated that the variability of the response is essential to its balance. It could still use some tinkering, but maybe a separate thread would be the best place to talk about it.

This discussion is targetted at levels 20 to 40, so let's consider a level 40 wizard. He's taken ISC as often as he can (21,24,27,30,33,36,39), and now has slots up to 16th level. He can cast spells of 6th level at will spontaneously - allowing him to teleport at will (just like a outsider of a CR one-quarter his own).

Remember that epic wizards get bonus spells at levels 23, 26, 29, 32, 35 and 38. So what you are describing is what a 30th level character could do. Or a 40th level character who has spent only half his feats on ISC. Unless this is not a wizard bonus feat- but it seems extremely wizardly.

I think that you are folding the benefit of IM into the benefit of Improved Spell Capacity. It's just you are treating a spell level as a level of metamagic. Instead of adding a +1 spell level spontaneously 1/round, you are allowing 1st level spells to be cast spontaneously and 1/round.

The spell pool is yet another benefit, though a smaller one.

Still, I think you are giving a fair bit more with ISC than you can get with IM. And IM is pretty powerful; I would hesitate for another feat to be more powerful still.

 

[Greybar]

Quick reply for lack of more time to be thorough: My main goal is to get rid of the fuss of low level spells, and in doing so perhaps free up power for epic spells. Perhaps I overreached in doing both at the same time.

My concern was that making the piddly spells "at will" was more storytelling/flow benefit than mechanism, so if I made it an independant feat it wouldn't be worth taking.

Since IM still requires for the base level spell slot to be burnt, perhaps a feat stacking on IM that provides those base level spells for free by converting them to "at will" would be a compromise with enough punch (but not too much).

 

[Cheiromancer]

Ad Libitum Spellcasting could be the name of the feat. A 30th level wizard who takes 4 ALS and 3 IM could cast maximized fireballs at will. Heck, any spell in his spellbook, as long as it is 3rd level or less, and up to 3 levels of metamagic.

A 35th level wizard with 10 ALS feats could cast any spell of 9th level or lower at will. Including wish.

Hmmm. I think it might be a bit much to waive the components and casting time; maybe make it so the spell slots of the indicated levels are restored each round (as by a night's rest) and the spells known to the spellcaster can be cast without preparation. He could still cast as many wishes he likes, but he'd still have to pay the xp costs. The spell slots wouldn't be discharged, though.

Maybe make it take a minute's concentration or something to restore the ad libitum spell slots. It would make it reminiscent of the Book of Nine Swords.

I don't know how all this would interact with ritual casting; if it is controlled by spell slots, then this might be awfully powerful; if it is controlled by a fatigue mechanism it might be alright.

I think as a mechanic it would work; it has the same feel as Improved Metamagic, anyway, and I think would provide a viable alternative (or supplement) to someone stocking up on IMs.

 

[The Forsaken One]

Ad Libitum Spellcasting could be the name of the feat. A 30th level wizard who takes 4 ALS and 3 IM could cast maximized fireballs at will. Heck, any spell in his spellbook, as long as it is 3rd level or less, and up to 3 levels of metamagic.

A 35th level wizard with 10 ALS feats could cast any spell of 9th level or lower at will. Including wish.

Hmmm. I think it might be a bit much to waive the components and casting time; maybe make it so the spell slots of the indicated levels are restored each round (as by a night's rest) and the spells known to the spellcaster can be cast without preparation. He could still cast as many wishes he likes, but he'd still have to pay the xp costs. The spell slots wouldn't be discharged, though.

Maybe make it take a minute's concentration or something to restore the ad libitum spell slots. It would make it reminiscent of the Book of Nine Swords.

I don't know how all this would interact with ritual casting; if it is controlled by spell slots, then this might be awfully powerful; if it is controlled by a fatigue mechanism it might be alright.

I think as a mechanic it would work; it has the same feel as Improved Metamagic, anyway, and I think would provide a viable alternative (or supplement) to someone stocking up on IMs.

I find myself agreeing on practically all of this post. But most of all... Cheiro I just love that feat name so much .

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Re: [Life] again.

Cheiro, I've read your arguments again regarding this seed and I still find myself unconvinced. I don't deny that it's possible to construct the relationship between raise dead, resurrection and true resurrection which you describe, but I'm not satisfied that it's entirely unforced.

Further, I don't know that it's *desirable* to limit the remit of true resurrection in this manner; the only real benefit that it would seem to offer is to tie awaken, animate dead and true resurrection into a meta-seed which employs the same +2SP/+1CR mechanic; the necromantic/healing/creation interface, so to speak.

I'm uncertain about x10 increments in the temporal range modifier, as I don't see any precedent for it in the way that duration units are arranged in the core rules beyond the first two increments: 1 round/level -> 1 minute level (x10) -> 10 mins/level (x10) -> 1hr/level (x6) -> 1 day/level (x24). The fact is, spell durations merely use convenient units of time, hence days -> months -> years -> decades would seem a more natural progression. I must confess that I'm also biased by the daily cycle -> lunar cyle -> solar cycle thing as well, which seems more, er, magical. Or something.

If, as you submit, true resurrection employs a different paradigm, then its SP should not be calculated with regard to resurrection at all; I think that invoking a nonepic 6SP/spell level factor might be construed as too much effort in making the numbers fit. Also, how are we going to work the cost of power components? We're both guilty of switching our preferences (sq. root and linear factors) to make seeds more responsive.

I don't mean to sound entirely negative; the coffee hasn't kicked in yet


*

Re: Spell-like Abilities and ISC

Greybar, I'm all about reducing bookkeeping. My feeling at the moment is that sorcerers may need an entirely different track than wizards and other casters who prepare spells, and these ideas may help illuminate exactly how this should be accomplished.

The status of ISC is dubious at the moment, due to a semi-acceptance of U_K's feats - Automatic Metamagic Capacity and Metamagic Freedom. It's difficult not to be persuaded by their elegance. ISC would be applicable to a level-based epic spellcasting system - which may turn out to be the best way of handling sorcerers regardless of how the other classes are tooled.

I think that if a specific feat offered the sorcerer the ability to use his lower-level slots at will as SLAs - tied to Improved Spell Capacity - it would work pretty well: Innate Spell (CA) still requires that the caster provide relevant XP costs, and if this were extended to such a feat, I think balance issues regarding wish might be less of a problem. I'm not sure it should be implicit in ISC, though - especially if the ISC slots are used to fuel a sorcerer's epic spells.

I wonder if something like this might work:


ARCANE SLUICE [EPIC]
As your knowledge of epic magic develops, so your command of lesser magic becomes complete.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 24 ranks, ability to spontaneously cast 10th-level arcane spells.
Benefit: You may use any spell that you know which is 10 or more levels lower than your highest-level spell slot at will as a spell-like ability once per round. For example, a sorcerer with this feat who can cast 16th-level spells could use any spell he knows of 6th-level or less as a spell-like ability. If the spell would normally require an XP component, you must still meet that component's cost each time you use the spell-like ability. If the spell would normally require a costly material component, the spell-like ability requires that you spend 1XP for each 5gp in value of that component unless you also possess the Ignore Material Components epic feat.


Initially, such a feat wouldn't be desirable, but by the time the caster has access to 14th or 15th level slots, it might start to look tempting.