Epic Magic Big Thread

[Cheiromancer]

Re: Soul Armorer

Evil clerics with the strength or protection domains should be able to do the same thing, only with unholy aura, shouldn't they?

My little method of counting (derived from the holy aura analysis) is curiously parallel to your method of counting secondary seeds. I say that two seventh level spell effects (2 x SP 18) should be a 10th level spell; that's very much like 7 + 7/2. Or four fourth level spells (4 x SP 12) is a 10th level spell; that's like 4 + 3 * (4/2). My analysis is based on 6 SP = 1 non-epic spell level, and so doesn't extend to epic levels. But there is an interesting resonance between our two approaches in their respective domains. I still don't fully understand secondary seeds, although I admire the way you can use them to effortlessly estimate various SPs that require laborious calculation on my part to duplicate. I am refining this technique; it's why I've been quiet for a few days. The method is much improved, but I need to analyze more spells with it.

Speaking of laborious calculations, since I've already done most of the work I figured I would write up the [protective aura] seed. It's mostly some of the [fortify] features combined with a splash of [afflict] and [ward]. Recall that my [fortify] lasts for 20 hours. However, I'm worried about stepping on fortify's toes - or mind blank's - so I think I'll cap the duration of this seed somewhat lower. People could still pay +18 to extend it ten-fold, if they wanted to.

I figure that making the target the same as holy aura's (20 creatures in a 20-ft.-radius burst centered on the caster) would cost +10. I wonder if I should include it, or can folks figure it out on their own?

[sblock=Seed: Protective Aura]
Abjuration

Root Spell: Cloak of chaos, holy aura, shield of law, unholy aura
Spellcraft Prerequisite: 24
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 75 ft.
Target: Target creature
Duration: 200 minutes
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

A faintly glowing radiance momentarily surrounds the subject; as the glow fades to invisibility it grants protection from attacks, resistance to spells, and an active defense against attackers who successfully strike the subject. This abjuration has the following effects.

• The warded creature gains a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saves.
  Factor: Each additional +1 bonus to AC and saves increases the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4.
• The warded creature gains spell resistance 28 against all spells.
  Factor: Each additional point of spell resistance increases the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1.
• The abjuration blocks possession and mental influence, just as protection from evil does.
  Factor: To protect against mind-affecting effects as the mind blank spell, increase the Spellcraft Prerequiste by +8. To protect against divination effects as a mind blank spell, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +8. These increases are cumulative.
• If a creature succeeds on a melee attack against a warded creature, the offending attacker is afflicted with an effect determined when the spell is developed; the attacker either becomes permanently blind, receives 1d6 points of Strength damage (Fort negates), is slowed, or is confused. Spell resistance and saying throws apply; the effects duplicate those of the blindness/deafness, slow and confusion spells except that the save DC is the same as that of [protective aura].
  Factor: For each additional sense afflicted, dice of strength damage done, or adverse status conferred, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +6.

General factors

• To restrict the effect of the seed to afflict only attackers of a specific alignment, and provide spell resistance only against spells of that alignment or spells cast by creatures of that alignment, reduce the Spellcraft Prerequisite by 4.

Conditions
A factor which makes a spell permanent may not combine with this seed.[/sblock]
I'm thinking that this seed would be an esoteric one, discovered only through feats and prestige classes and such. The Soul Armorer feat would grant access to it and the [fortify] seed. I'm assuming that access to a seed allows one to use it as a secondary seed.

So a character with the Soul Armorer feat wouldn't get a un/holy aura with each fortify spell he cast (unless he used it as an secondary seed), but he would be able to develop epic un/holy auras if he felt like it. In addition to this access you could give a bonus to characters who use [protective aura] as a secondary seed; if you make the bonus +12 it would in fact allow a holy aura to be included with every fortify spell.

I should really take a look at the blasphemy suite of spells. The exercise should provide insights into costing no save offensive effects. I'm going to treat the caster level of the 7th level spell as capped at 20th level, though; otherwise the spell is very broken. Perhaps I'll be able to make an esoteric seed based on these as well.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Re: Soul Armorer

Evil clerics with the strength or protection domains should be able to do the same thing, only with unholy aura, shouldn't they?

Yep. And Chaotic clerics w/ cloak of chaos; and lawful clerics w/ shield of law. Poor relations that they always seem to be.

But there is an interesting resonance between our two approaches in their respective domains. I still don't fully understand secondary seeds...

Nor I fully your approach. Still, we seem to end up at the same destination.

I'm thinking that this seed would be an esoteric one

I think this is an excellent idea. Because there are spells which just beg for esoteric seeds...

Prismatic sphere/wall/spray
Holy Word /Blasphemy / Dictum / Word of Chaos
Storm of Vengeance
Symbols
Power Words

To name a few of the biggest ones. I've taken a pretty feat-intensive approach so far, but PrCs might be the way to go with some of these.

I was considering two other sets: Weather/Destruction domains ([Weather] seed + storm of vengeance) and Sun/Fire/Glory domains ([Energy][Fire] + sunburst) as suitable 'unlocking' combinations in the same vein as holy aura in the Soul Armorer feat.

I don't want to overdo the 'add this spell to the [X] seed' feat mechanic - there are plenty of other ways to make otherwise nonassociated seeds available to clerics - and I'm sceptical about opening the [Weather] seed up to anything other than an aggregate (which demands high SPs).

I figured that a modified [Weather] seed is in order, though.

(Retrieves hammer):

[Weather]
Transmutation

Root Spell: Control weather
Preferred Mitigation: Power Components
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 1200 ft.
Area: 1200 ft. radius circle, centered on you
Duration: 200 minutes
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This seed allows the caster to change the weather in the local area. The Area extends to a 1200-ft. radius centered on the caster. Once the spell is cast, the weather manifests immediately. Once cast, the emanation is immobile and the caster may leave the spell's area while the conditions persist. Further changing the weather is a standard action, and subsequent changes also manifest immediately: the caster must be within the spell's area in order to effect this.

Ordinarily, a caster can’t directly target a creature or object, though indirect effects are possible. This seed determines the prevailing weather conditions within the range of seasonal extremes of the given climate: it can create cold snaps, heat waves, thunderstorms, fogs, blizzards—even a tornado that moves randomly in the affected Area. Creating targeted damaging effects requires the use of the [energy] seed.

Factor: Increasing the area to a 2-mile radius circle incurs a +4 SP modifier; subsequent increases in range may be figured normally from a base 2-mile range. Increasing the duration of the seed to 20 hours incurs a +2 modifier; subsequent increases in duration are figured normally from a base 20 hour duration.

Limitation: If a spell is developed in which there is a 10-minute lag before any change occurs in the prevailing weather conditions, apply a -6 mitigating factor.

Special: If a factor is applied to increase the area of the spell, the range automatically expands to meet the new area.



Base SP 18. Offset 10-minute lag in manifestation time (+6); reduce casting time to 1 action (+6); reduce duration by 1 category 4d12 hrs -> 200 mins (-2), reduce area by 1 increment (-4).

Edit: tweaked factors. Removed hokey area/range factors. Reduced value of 10-minute lag to -6. I figure the reduction in lag isn't worth as much as in when we costed elemental swarm for [call] - the utility is lower, but its still worthy of a major factor.

Edit2: Homogenized parameters.


Observations:

1) We need to decide on an exponential factor for area increases.

2 miles corresponds to control weather; 20 miles corresponds to the limit of commune with nature. Although commune with nature is not explicitly even an area spell, its description speaks in terms of radius. Apocalypse from the sky (BoVD) is a 200-mile radius spell, so I guess it's kind of legit. Nonepic spells can get this big using exponential factors.

In any event, I'd rate them at +4 for a 10-fold increase.

2) Control weather is weird. I don't know if any other spell has an area/range entry like it. Has it been errated?

3) [Weather] is now combat-effective. I'm not sure whether that's good or not.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

[Polymorph]
Transmutation (Polymorph)

Root Spell: Dragonshape
Preferred Mitigation: Power Components, XP Burn
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 1200 ft.
Target: One corporeal creature; see text
Duration: 200 minutes
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless) or Fortitude negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) or yes; see text

Spells which use this seed can effect the transformation of one creature into some other creature - by including the relevant factors, incoporeal forms and creatures of the plant type are subject to this seed.

The caster can transform himself into a specific corporeal creature of up to CR 18, the nature of which is determined during the spell develeopment process. If the form is to be determined when the spell is cast, the appropriate flexibility factor must be included. The target of a spell developed with this seed takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form in place of its own except as follows:

• The target retains its own alignment (and personality, within the limits of the new form's ability scores).

• The target retains its own hit points, but gains a number of temporary hit points equal to the bonus hit points that the new form would normally have by virtue of its Constitution. These temporary hit points disappear at the end of the spell's duration.

• The target is treated has having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as the sleep spell, though it uses the new form's base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice.

• The target retains the ability to understand the languages it understands in its normal form. If the new form is normally capable of speech, the target retains the ability to speak these languages as well. It can write in the languages it understands, but only if the new form is capable of writing in some manner (even a primitive manner, such as drawing in the dirt with a paw).

• The target does not gain any spellcasting ability of its new form, although it can use spell-like abilities if the new form possesses them.

In all other ways, the target's normal game statistics are effectively replaced by those of the new form. The target loses all of the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features (even if the new form would normally be able to use these class features).

If the new form's size is different from the target's normal size, its new space must share as much of the original form's space as possible, squeezing into the available space (see PH 148) if necessary. If insufficient space exists for the new form, the spell fails.

Any gear worn or carried by the target melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the target reverts to its true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on its body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the target's feet.

The spellcaster can freely designate the new form's minor physical qualities (such as hair color and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form's significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under the spellcaster's control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form's kind. The target of a polymorph spell is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.

If the target of a polymorph spell is slain or rendered unconscious, the spell ends. Any part of the body that is separated from the whole remains polymorphed until the effect ends.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures and creatures of the plant type are normally immune to polymorph spells. A creature with the shapechanger subtype (such as a lycanthrope or doppelganger) can revert to its natural form as a standard action.

Factors: For each additional +1CR beyond CR18 of the assumed form, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.

Flexibility: To develop a spell which allows the caster to assume the form of a creature with the incorporeal subtype, and to extend the [polymorph] seed to affect incorporeal creatures, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4. To extend the seed to affect plant creatures, also increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4. To develop a spell which allows the caster to assume any form, or which can effect the change of any object or creature into any other object or creature from size fine to colossal, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +10: the asumed form is still limited by a creature's CR, where appropriate.

Flexibility: To develop a spell which allows the target or caster to choose a form at the moment it is cast, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +10; to develop a spell which also allows the target to change its form once every round as a free action, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by a further +10: these factors are cumulative.

Special: If a spell is developed which affects unwilling targets, they are entitled to a Fortitude saving throw to negate the effect.


Notes: Assumes a base CR20 creature from the root spell (SP 22). Extend casting time to 1 standard action (-8 SP), extend range from personal to 1200 ft. (+ 10SP), increase duration to 200 minutes (+4 SP), drop (D), reduce CR by -2 (-4 SP). Included shapechange and polymorph any object emulation factors.

Many edits.

 

[Cheiromancer]

work in progress

I'm starting to analyze non-epic spells in terms of "kernels" which I derive by subtracting away all the factors from a spell; everything is personal, one target, 20 round duration. Even if it doesn't make sense (as for offensive spells). I assume that 1 non-epic spell level = 6 SP.

Here's something copy-pasted from my notes. To get the cost of something I need to know how much everything else costs first; it's a paradox, but I seem to be making progress.

[sblock]
Holy Aura: (Save +8, AC +8, SR 25 +5, only vs evil -2, ProEvil protection +4, blind other +6, only vs evil -2, limited contingency (affect attacker who strikes you) +4, repeated effects +8; 20 foot radius spread +4, range 20-ft +4, 20 creatures +6 = 53)/6 = 8.83 very strong for an 8th level spell!
For seed, need to get to 60. add +3 (increased SR), remove limitation of alignment +4, increase base duration (+4), range close: +6, no spread of creatures -10

Slowed for 20 rounds: (6 + close (+6), up to 20 creatures (+6) within 30 ft. +2)/6 = level 3.3
Permanently blinded: (6 + still +2, medium +8, dispellable +2, living only -4)/6 = level 2.3
"permanent blindness" is awfully cheap. I wonder what temporary blindness is costed at?
Confused for 20 rounds: (8 + medium +8, burst +2, in a 15 ft.-radius, +3 = 21)/6 = level 3.5
Is confusion a weak 4th level spell?
Lesser confusion: (8 + close +6, living creature -4, 1 round duration -4 = 6)/6 = level 1 (bard)
Invisibility: 10 + touch +2 + 20-minutes +2 = 14 SP (level 2.3)
Greater invisibility; shorter duration (-2), but renews itself (+8) as a swift action (+4) when you attack (+4) Level 4.7
Invisibility sphere: (10+ 10-ft range +3 + 10-ft. radius emanation +3 + 20-minutes duration +2 = 18)/6 = level 3
Mass invisibility: (10 + long +10 + 20-minutes +2 + unrestricted # of targets +10 +creatures within 180 ft. (+9) = 41)/6 level 6.83
Swift = +4, 1 round duration = -4.
CLW = (4 + touch +2 = 6)/6 = level 1
Mass CLW = (4 + close +6, 20 creatures +6, within 30 ft. +2 = 18)/6 = 3
Fireball (damage 4 + long 10, burst +2, 20-ft.-radius +4 = 20)/6 = 3.3
DBF: (Fireball + Enhance +8, delay +5, heighten +8 = 41)/6 =6.83 a bit weak for a 7th level spell.
Horrid wilting: (Damage 4 + Enhanced +8, heightened +10, typeless +8, only affects living -4, long range +10, Unrestricted number of targets +10, within 60 ft. +5 = 51)/6 = 8.5
Raise dead : (28 + 20-days temporal range +8 + touch +2 – 4 casting time – 2 power components = 32)/6 = level 5 spell
Resurrection: (28 + 200-years temporal range +15 + touch +2 – 6 casting time – 3 power components + almost sweeping flexibility +8 = 44)/6 = level 7 spell[/sblock]
These are the list of factors that I have handy when analyzing spells:

[sblock]Range:
personal
(targeted <=> ray +0)
touch +2
close +6
medium +8
long +10

Target:
1 target +0
20 creatures (selective) +6
Unrestricted # of targets (selective) +10
Burst (unselective) +2
(beneficial spells that are unselective are emanations)

Area
5 ft.-radius +2
creature to 20 foot radius +4
creatures within close range +6
creatures within medium range +8
creatures within long range +10

Duration
1 round -4
20 rounds +0
20 minutes +2
200 min +4
20 hours +6
20 days +8
1 year +10
10 years +12
Century +14
Millenium +16
10,000 years +18
(permanent)

Casting Time
1 swift action --> +4 (in designing spells)
1 round ---> -2
1 minute --> -4
10 mins ---> -6
1 hour ----> -10

Power components
sqr root of value (in 1000s)
[/sblock]
I use heighten when analyzing suites of offensive spells; +1 DC = +2 SP.

Right now I'm working on the assumption that you need a range factor and an area factor for all area spells. So you can't just have a 20-ft. burst centered on the caster (+2 for an unselective burst, +4 for 20-ft. radius = +6), you also have to pay for a super-close range (+4). If it's a 20-ft. radius burst within long range it's +6 for the area, +10 for the range. Notice the damage kernel for a fireball (10d6) is only +4.

This is a permissive way of costing factors (it makes all kinds of things possible at low spell levels), and ignores some constraints on spell design. But it seems to give good results when analyzing spells. When the results come out bad I see it as an opportunity to refine the system. I suspect that I will have the chance to do some refining with the charm person suite, which goes all the way from charm person to dominate monster. I'm not sure that the 1 level = 6 SP formula is going to hold up over this range.

Anyway, assuming the area is within range, the cost of area should be the same as the range factors I list above. So quadrupling the dimensions of an area should be +2; saying that increasing them 10-fold is +4 is close enough.

Here's the result of my kernel analysis for Dragonshape, Shapechange and your [polymorph] seed:

Dragonshape: casting time +4, KR*2 = 48, dismissible +2 = 54
Shapechange: duration +4, almost sweeping flexibility +8, change each round +8, dismissible +2 = +22 (KR 16*2 = 32)
Sep’s [polymorph]: 2* KR 18 + long +10 + tens of minutes +4 = 50

Since a seed is a 10th level spell, it's kernel value should be 60. I also think your flexibility factors are a trifle too expensive. I'd say include the flexible provision for free (it can be mitigated out) and give back the dismissible part. It would suck to be in dragon form and not be able to get out of it.

I looked up the red dragon in Upper_Krust's IH appendix, and it has a CR of 36; times 2/3 is 24. It makes dragonshape come out very nicely; a 9th level spell should have a kernel value of 9 * 6 = 54.

I guess the point of this all is seed design; figure out what the right kernel is, add enough factors ("husk") to make a good 10th level spell, and call that the seed. Players then take the seeds, fiddle with the factors a little to make their epic spells, and its all good.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Sep’s [polymorph]: 2* KR 18 + long +10 + tens of minutes +4 = 50

I've been going backwards and forwards on CR 18 and CR 20, and I've been dubious about the flexibility factors.

I've also been vacillating about how to cost swift -> standard: I've felt that this factor should be absolutely 'reclaimable' - i.e. +8. But I actually think if you cost quicken at +4, them this seed might benefit from a dispensatory factor when a developer chooses to quicken it:

Factor: If a factor is applied to quicken a spell developed with this seed, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4.

This mirrors exponential factors being permitted in development under certain circumstances. [Polymorph] has a 'natural' swift-action casting time. It would also encourage developers to use this seed for swift-action spells.

I looked up the red dragon in Upper_Krust's IH appendix, and it has a CR of 36; times 2/3 is 24. It makes dragonshape come out very nicely; a 9th level spell should have a kernel value of 9 * 6 = 54.

I'm not sure whether I should be using CR/2 for dragons in UK's conversion.

Whether you cost the ability to assume a new form as a swift action every round at +6, +8 or +10 is really hard to gauge. IME players tend to stick with one or two forms when they cast shapechange, but I've never underestimated the potential utility.

And remember, this isn't the inhibited shapechange variety of alternate form: potentially, a caster could use [polymorph] as a free action every round to gain access to the daily suite of spell-like abilities from a new creature.

Imagine a swift-action spell in the mode of dragonshape which allows you to assume any creature of up to CR 22 every round: pit fiend/solar/balor/solar. Sure, I'd make them pay XP if they used a pit fiend's wish, but there are some pretty mean SLAs amongst these creatures: implosion, meteor swarm, GDM, power words, prismatic spray, imprisonment etc. etc. Could be kind of handy if you meet a particular foe with a known weakness.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Sorcerers

I'd like to avoid ISC, if possible: ASC and MF render it pretty much redundant, and the only reason to retain it would be for a level-based epic spell system (which I don't favour, as you know). And I'd really like to emphasize the spontaneity of sorcerers - a variety of ideas have been floated as to how this can be best accomplished.

The Epic Spellcasting feat would apply only to casters who prepare spells, and a different track would be available to spontaneous casters - some (but not all) of the feats with the [Epic Magic] tag would apply to casters on either track. Presumably, there would be feats which applied only to spontaneous casters, as well.

For the moment, I'm going to assume that this is the revised feat as it applies to casters who prepare spells:

Epic Spellcasting [Epic][Epic Magic]
You may develop and cast epic spells.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (arcana, religion OR nature) 24 ranks, Spellcraft 24 ranks, ability to prepare and cast 9th-level arcane or divine spells.
Benefit: You may develop and cast epic spells. You gain 1 epic spell slot.
Special: This feat may be taken more than once. Each time you take it, you gain another epic spell slot. Each time you take this feat, the number of prerequisite Spellcraft ranks increases by +3.


I'm considering something like this. It may be overly complex:

Spell Revelation[Epic][Epic Magic]
An aspect of the mysteries of epic magic has become known to you.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana, religion or nature) 24 ranks, ability to spontaneously cast 9th level arcane or divine spells.
Benefit: Choose one seed: you have intuited an understanding of its inner workings, and may develop spells with it. You also gain two epic spell slots. The total number of spells which you know cannot exceed the number of epic spell slots which you possess.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take it, you gain two additional epic spell slots and insight into another seed. Each time you take this feat, the number of prerequisite Spellcraft ranks increases by +3.
Special: You may develop compound spells (epic spells which manipulate more than one seed) provided that you possess the Spell Revelation feat with regard to all of the seeds involved.


This would pave the way for this feat:

Seed Shaper [Epic][Epic Magic]

Prerequisites: Spell Revelation (relevant seed), Spellcraft 27 ranks, Knowledge (arcana, religion or nature) 27 ranks, ability to spontaneously cast 9th level arcane or divine spells.
Benefit: Choose one seed with regard to which you possess the Spell Revelation feat. When you cast spells developed with this seed you gain a number of free factors equal to half the number of ranks in Spellcraft which you possess, rounded down. A free factor may be applied at the moment a spell is cast.

If the modification from free factors would raise the Spellcraft Prerequisite beyond your normal ability to cast, the modified spell must be mitigated against. Backlash and XP burn are always considered preferred mitigating factors for spells modified in this way.

Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take it, it applies to a different seed.
Special: You can apply free factors to a compound spell only if you possess the Seed Shaper feat with regard to all seeds involved.


The question: which factors should be included as permissible Impromptu Modifiers?

 

[Cheiromancer]

I'm not sure whether I should be using CR/2 for dragons in UK's conversion.

My understanding is that this represents how WotC under-CRs dragons to make them scarier. A UK-36 dragon is WotC-18. A UK-36 non-dragon would normally be WotC-24. Although I think this mostly applies to SRD monsters; some critters from later monster manuals seem to also be under-CRed.

But I think if you are considering them for player use, you should weight the UK-36 as a 24, not an 18. There are flaws with this system too, but I think it is the best considering the uncertainties intrinsic to a challenge rating system.

I think [polymorph] should let swift be put in or out at a cost of 4 SP. As you mention, it is a natural for dragonshape.

And remember, this isn't the inhibited shapechange variety of alternate form: potentially, a caster could use [polymorph] as a free action every round to gain access to the daily suite of spell-like abilities from a new creature.

I am hesitant about allowing characters to use abilities that have limited uses per day. Using any SLA or supernatural ability has an opportunity cost; you can't be doing something else. But the abilities that are limited per day seem to require more of a balancing factor. Some of the things you can change into are spellcasters; I don't think you should get access to their prepared spells.

I'd like to avoid ISC, if possible: ASC and MF render it pretty much redundant, and the only reason to retain it would be for a level-based epic spell system (which I don't favour, as you know).

I've been thinking of it as a "floating" slot that migrates upwards as the user's level increases. Which compensates somewhat for the lack of bonus spells that it gets in the ISC + "spell level = 6 + SP/6" system.

Re: Sorcerer feats

I really like it that sorcerers get to cast twice as many epic spells. And they don't have to spend the gp and time and xp to get their first few. Very nice. [edit] Figures. You go and change the part I liked! [/edit]

I was also sort of thinking that sorcerers could tinker with their spells a little bit on a daily basis. Or at least when they level up. 6 points of free factor changes per spell, say. A wizard might be able to do the same thing; but I was thinking 12 free factor changes total, and only when they level up. If they want more they can pay for it.

I think that it could be cumbersome if a sorcerer were constantly fiddling with his spells at the table. A suite would be better. In practice a player could write up the likely variations ahead of time, and thus have a de facto suite although in game terms he's applying the factors on the fly; and even if the suite is the default mechanic, a DM might allow an unprepared player to design an ad hoc spell at the table and pretend it was in his suite all along.

So maybe there wouldn't be any game play difference between the two approaches, but in practice I suspect that the suite version would be more playable. (I know I disclaimed a preference for this idea, but now I'm reclaiming it. )

The question: which factors should be included as permissible Impromptu Modifiers?

I don't know what you mean by this.

****

I've got a formula for the Power Word seed. Close range, verbal component, 1 individual, no save, affects only a creature whose current hit points are below the current threshold. Choose a base spell (like blindness or finger of death) whose spell level is SL. If the range of the base spell is touch and/or if there are expensive material components or a long casting time you might want to increase the SL a bit. (convert the extra factors at a rate of 6 SP per spell level) Choose a hit point threshold of HP. Then to determine the SP of the resulting epic power word consult the following formula:

(SL * 6) + (HP / 6) - 45 = SP

E.g. if you wanted to upgrade power word: kill to affect a 200 hp target, you'd have

(7 * 6) + (200/6) - 45 = 42 + 33 - 45 = 30.

That's assuming that being killed by a PWK is like failing a save vs finger of death.

E.g. to put a 300 hp creature into temporal stasis (treat as SL 9 for its range and power component cost) would be

(9 * 6) + (300 / 6) - 45 = 54 + 50 - 45 = 59.

It's expensive, but the creature is treated as automatically failing its save. SR still applies, of course. Although there should be a way of bypassing it, too... I'd guess that adding +12 to the SP of a power word would allow you to bypass SR too. Awfully expensive, but with enough SP anything should be possible.

****

I'm still having trouble with the blasphemy suite. For one thing, you can kill creatures with a blasphemy that a power word: kill wouldn't touch. A 10th level barbarian with 120 hp, say. And you affect a whole bunch of creatures in a 40-ft. spread, not just one. The overlapping effects are complicating things too.

At the moment I'm thinking that a blasphemy occupies a cost-effectiveness "valley" - almost any change to its parameters, even one that makes it "weaker" (like confining its effect to a single target) increases its SP. Thus if you eliminate the overlapping effects and make it affect only a single target, then you might not be able to affect that 10th level barbarian any more, even if you increase it to 9th level. (The fact that hp changes in combat but HD normally don't is an important difference between the two spells; I'm still trying to chew on that.)

I still think that blasphemy should have its effects capped at level 20. +1 level = +2 SP. But other than that... I dunno.

[edit] The comparison isn't always in favor of blasphemy, of course. A PWK can destroy a 20th level wizard with a 10 Constitution. Or a wounded 20th level fighter. So it might be wrong to compare the two of them, or to base an argument on direct damage. The [destroy] seed is buried deep in the analysis of PWK, but it's hard to see. Perhaps negative levels would be a more fruitful approach to figuring out the level based mechanic of the blasphemy suite...

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Another version. Removes the cumulative +3 ranks prerequisite, but only grants 1 slot, Potentially faster access to more seeds. I like this version better.

Spell Revelation [Epic][Epic Magic]
An aspect of the mysteries of epic magic has become known to you.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana, religion or nature) 24 ranks, ability to spontaneously cast 9th level arcane or divine spells.
Benefit: Choose one seed: you have intuited an understanding of its inner workings, and may develop spells with it. You also gain one epic spell slot. The total number of epic spells which you know cannot exceed the number of epic spell slots which you possess.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take it, you gain insight into another seed and gain another epic spell slot.
Special: You may develop compound spells (epic spells which manipulate more than one seed) provided that you possess the Spell Revelation feat with regard to all of the seeds involved.


Note: I'd allow a variant of U_K's Improved Spellcasting (or your iteration of it) to apply to epic spells if this version of Spell Revelation were used. You could thus gain (seed + slot) or 2 slots via a feat.

Epic Spell Capacity [Epic][Epic Magic]
You expand the horizons of your epic spellcasting capabilites.
Prerequisites: Spell Revelation, Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana, religion or nature) 24 ranks, ability to spontaneously cast 9th level arcane or divine spells.
Benefit: You gain two extra epic spell slots. These slots can be used to cast any epic spell that you know: the total number of epic spells which you know cannot exceed the number of epic spell slots which you possess.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times; its effects stack. Each time you take it you gain two more epic spell slots per day.


Edited several times.

I think this might work. A sorcerer with a relatively balanced build but focussed primarily on Epic Spellcasting might look something like this:

Spell Revelation [destroy] (21st), Epic Spell Capacity (23rd), Spell Revelation [summon] (24th), Epic Spell Capacity (26th), Automatic Metamagic Capacity (27th), Metamagic Freedom (29th), Spell Revelation [fortify] (30th).

Knowledge of 3 seeds (up to 7 individual spells) and 7 epic spell slots is pretty neat for level 30 - especially given the fact that the sorcerer has not entirely neglected his nonepic spellcasting either.

A wizard might have 4 slots. If he has invested only 10% of his 4.3Mgp in epic spell development, he would probably know 11-15 spells in the USP 24-40 range.

A more dedicated sorcerer build (say around [destroy]) might be problematic, 11 epic spells /day plus Metannihilator is possible by level 30. At the same time, this character sacrifices a lot of options - balancing focus against versatility is always hard.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

This might be better than Seed Shaper. In some ways it is analagous to AMC, but only with regard to one seed. It grants a total of +8 in benefits: I figured that this was about right, given its range.

Edit: benefits are +8 linear or +2 exponential.

Epic Spell Flexibility [Epic][Epic Magic]
You can manipulate epic spells which you know on the fly by means of impromptu modifications.
Prerequisites: Spell Revelation (relevant seed), Spellcraft 27 ranks, Knowledge (arcana, religion or nature) 27 ranks, ability to spontaneously cast 9th level arcane or divine spells.
Benefit: Choose one seed with regard to which you possess the Spell Revelation feat. When you cast a spell developed with this seed you may manipulate it with an impromptu modification. An impromptu modification is applied at the moment a spell is cast. See 'Impromptu Modifications' below for details.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times; each time you take it, it applies to a different seed.


Impromptu Modifications

• Focussed. The spell's Save DC is increased by +4 points.
• Penetrating. The spell gains a +8 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome SR.
• Buttressed. The spell gains a +8 bonus on opposed spellcaster checks made to dispel it.
• Remote. The spell's range increases by one increment (if its range entry is 75 ft. or more). A spell with a range of entry of 1200 ft. increases to one mile.
• Colossal. The spell's area (if it is an area spell) is quadrupled.
• Enduring. The duration of the spell (if non-instantaneous) increases by 1 increment.
• Swift. You may cast the spell as a swift action if it normally requires a standard action.
• Trifurcated. A ray or a spell which specifies a single target creature may affect up to 2 additional targets.
• Enhanced. Damage dealt by the spell increases by 50%.

Rather than develop a suite, and without having to calculate a slew of factors during casting, this allows a variety of extemporaneous tweaks to be made to a spell.

Note: I'm also wondering if the "Affect up to 20 additional targets within range" factor should be +12 in spell development (not seed tweaking). This would be equivalent to Chain Spell (+6SP) plus offset Save DC penalty otherwise associated with Chain Spell feat (+8), but bearing in mind that the primary target doesn't normally suffer from said penalty (-2, minor). This corresponds to your +6SP internal seed factor.

The original "add additional target at +4SP" factor was derived from Split Ray; it's mostly superseded by the chained effect, but still might be useful in certain circumstances: I used it in the "Trifurcated" option above.

 

[Cheiromancer]

For Enhanced I'd make it do double damage; allow the (usually illicit) double-empower factor into an epic spell. A flat bonus is odd since the base damage might be anything from a few d6s (for a wall of fire or some kind of exotic fire shield) or 40d6 (for a disintegrate based effect). A fixed multiplier would be better.

Note: I'm also wondering if the "Affect up to 20 additional targets within range" factor should be +12 in spell development (not seed tweaking). This would be equivalent to Chain Spell (+6SP) plus offset Save DC penalty otherwise associated with Chain Spell feat (+8), but bearing in mind that the primary target doesn't normally suffer from said penalty (-2, minor). This corresponds to your +6SP internal seed factor.

I didn't employ that chain of reasoning in determining that value, so I'm gratified that there is another route to the same conclusion. Note that this +6 internal seed factor requires that there be an associated area; e.g. +4 for a 20-ft.-radius sphere. Off-hand I can't think of any spells that don't require the targets to be grouped somehow. For one or two targets it is better to use the +4 factor derived from Split Ray.

BTW, the geometry of "no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart" tends to duplicate a 20-ft.-radius sphere; consider an equilateral triangle whose sides are 30 ft. long, inscribed in a circle. IIRC the radius of that circle is 17.32 ft., close enough to 20 ft. as to make no difference.

Another passing thought; I notice that we allow all kinds of factors in spell design that are based on metamagic feats, but that we aren't requiring spellcasters to actually know those feats. I'm not suggesting that we add prerequisites to particular factors; (although in some cases that might be a good idea- like quicken, for example) rather, maybe some feats should be turned into "techniques" that any spellcaster with enough ranks in Spellcraft would know. I'm thinking especially of obscure feats like Rapid Spell (Complete Divine). If casters are free to increase and decrease the casting time of an epic spell they should certainly be able to duplicate this feat. Other techniques would be fiddling with range and duration.

But if a spellcaster with 15 ranks in Spellcraft (or whatever) can apply Extend Spell to any spell, perhaps a character who already has that feat could get an additional benefit; increasing the duration category by one step (to a maximum of hours/level). I think that would be cool. Mind you, I'm always on the look-out for ways of getting an all-day buff.

****

I have a dilemma with the enervation/energy drain suite (is two spells enough to make a suite?) Namely I have a formula for a medium range energy drain kind of spell; SP = 9 + (3 * levels drained). The base seed would do 5 levels (same as the average from energy drain) and at SP 54 they can do 15. This progression is intended to parallel what a conventional caster can do with Metamagic Freedom and all the AMC feats he can muster.

The exact formula isn't important; what is important is what happens to a target who gets hit by them. As I understand it, it will strip away all the highest level spell slots- can you think of a rationale why that would not be the epic slots that get emptied? Normally I'd say that an epic level character would have a reliable deathward protection. But I'm wary of absolutes; should an epic energy drain allow an opposed caster level check to see if the death ward is momentarily suppressed?

It seems like it would ruin the fun in a high level encounter; the caster with the highest initiative would effectively disarm his spellcasting foe. I think it would be best if a) epic spell slots were *not* stripped first (for whatever reason the 9th and 8th level slots get stripped first), and b) an opposed caster level check *is* allowed vs epic spells. Though this nerfs conventional casters; the 33rd level character (with MF and 8 AMC slots) can cast a quadruply empowered energy drain that drains 6-24 levels from an unprotected opponent that would virtually never work (unless preceded by some kind of hefty dispel.) But his jacobean counterpart would be guaranteed to strip away 5 or more top level spells (SP 24 + 10 for improved caster level check- that's without any AMC boosts. Heck, it's with a spell that he hadn't updated for 2 levels.)

What do you think?