Epic Skills: Broken but HILARIOUS
- Thread starter Anubis
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Elminster's Son
First Post
To begin with. Have any of you who think this is crazy ever gotten a character that high of a level? I just got done DMing for 43rd level characters. And I've seen the party diplomat turn a small horde of Ogremages into friendly allies after a few successful rolls. (True, they weren't suicidal fanatics). But when you add in the stats these characters are likely to have through such means as Wish, Miracle, natural enhancements, magical enhancements, etc. A DC 80 swim check can potentially be a walk in the park! And that's stark naked with no magical items!
46 ranks in swim + a STR modifier of 15 + Miscellaneous bonuses = about a 65 to 70!! And all he's got to do is get a natural ten on his roll or better and he's up that waterfall!
I don't think it's saying you swim up the thing with no resistance, afterall, you watch a salmon make that check. And it's a stinkin' animal!!
Let's also not forget what it took those characters to get that far? Hmm? And most Epic monsters are not gentle. Most fights are win or die. There is no retreat.
46 ranks in swim + a STR modifier of 15 + Miscellaneous bonuses = about a 65 to 70!! And all he's got to do is get a natural ten on his roll or better and he's up that waterfall!
I don't think it's saying you swim up the thing with no resistance, afterall, you watch a salmon make that check. And it's a stinkin' animal!!
Let's also not forget what it took those characters to get that far? Hmm? And most Epic monsters are not gentle. Most fights are win or die. There is no retreat.
Henry
Autoexreginated
I have to side with the "physics-breaking skills" crowd here. If I'm playing 60th level characters, I EXPECT to be able to do things beyond mortal sense, like ride a rainbow, walk on willow branches, split a tree with one blow, and swim up a waterfall like a Saturn V Rocket. A 60th level character is a god on earth, mortal flesh barely holding quasi-divine power, and if they can break a few laws of nature, then more power to 'em.
The 20th level and below characters I normally play can't accomplish them, so I don't care, myself.
The 20th level and below characters I normally play can't accomplish them, so I don't care, myself.
lissilambe
First Post
I can see both sides of this argument, and they both are pretty accurate. The abilities granted by these high level skills are insane, by any degree, but I would hope they we all agree that they are also insanely fun to consider (or even perform, if given a chance to play a good game with those levels).
However, as we are citing examples of epic level literary characters, wuxia and anime help define high fantasy skills. But also refer to the musical "Camelot". When Lancelot hears about the formation of the Round Table, he sings a song called "C'est Moi", and goes on about the deeds it should take to join the Round Table. Every implication of the song is that Lancelot can do these deeds, and that he (and possibly others) expect that same level from other knights. Examples include:
"Suceed where a less fantastic man would fail.
Climb a wall no one else can climb,
Cleave a dragon in record time,
Swim a moat in a coat of heavy iron mail."
and
"With a will and a self-restraint
That's the envy of ev'ry saint
He could easily work a miracle or two."
And that from a knight of the Round Table, a relatively grounded group of heroes. Indeed Lancelot later goes on to restore a fellow knight to life (though this might be epic Healing roll, it's also probably laying on hands
)
I agree with the idea that it may depend on what fantasy tales a person was exposed to as well. And personal tastes of course. And the setting may offer some possibilities in that direction as well. For example, a LARP setting up where I live, the Lione Rampant game setting, the creators decided early on that for safety reasons, they wanted all players to be able to cast Light spells. So they decided the setting was magic-rich, and that all characters could access it (for light spells). As a result, when characters hit high level of skills, the abilities of these skills could become mildly magical. For example, someone with very high levels of Pick Pockets could slip off a ring from under a glove. I always thought that was cool.
Yes, the Epic Level skill tables are crazy. But heck, that's the idea, I think, and they hit the mark they aimed for, even if it's not to everyone's taste.
Take care,
Don
However, as we are citing examples of epic level literary characters, wuxia and anime help define high fantasy skills. But also refer to the musical "Camelot". When Lancelot hears about the formation of the Round Table, he sings a song called "C'est Moi", and goes on about the deeds it should take to join the Round Table. Every implication of the song is that Lancelot can do these deeds, and that he (and possibly others) expect that same level from other knights. Examples include:
"Suceed where a less fantastic man would fail.
Climb a wall no one else can climb,
Cleave a dragon in record time,
Swim a moat in a coat of heavy iron mail."
and
"With a will and a self-restraint
That's the envy of ev'ry saint
He could easily work a miracle or two."
And that from a knight of the Round Table, a relatively grounded group of heroes. Indeed Lancelot later goes on to restore a fellow knight to life (though this might be epic Healing roll, it's also probably laying on hands
)I agree with the idea that it may depend on what fantasy tales a person was exposed to as well. And personal tastes of course. And the setting may offer some possibilities in that direction as well. For example, a LARP setting up where I live, the Lione Rampant game setting, the creators decided early on that for safety reasons, they wanted all players to be able to cast Light spells. So they decided the setting was magic-rich, and that all characters could access it (for light spells). As a result, when characters hit high level of skills, the abilities of these skills could become mildly magical. For example, someone with very high levels of Pick Pockets could slip off a ring from under a glove. I always thought that was cool.
Yes, the Epic Level skill tables are crazy. But heck, that's the idea, I think, and they hit the mark they aimed for, even if it's not to everyone's taste.
Take care,
Don
Aaron L
Hero
IIRC, Beowulf swam for DAYS to get to Grendels Mother's lair. I seem to recall legends of people swimming up waterfalls, and doing similiar things. It's a very restricted view of fantasy not to allow things like this, and in fact mythology is FULL of heroes doing EXACTLY these kinds of things. Cowboys riding tornadoes. People jumping across huge chasms. Walking on clouds. And I'm not talking about wizards here.
Henry
Autoexreginated
Aaron L said:
Two words: Paul Bunyan.
His lungs were so strong that he could empty a whole pond of frogs with one "holler". (Heck of a "perform" or "handle animal" check.)
He once used (his pet ox) Babe to straighten out thirty miles of crooked town road. When all the twists and curves were pulled straight there were an extra twelve miles of road left over. Paul rolled it all up and gave it back to the town to use elsewhere. (Ever wonder what an Epic Craft skill check would look like?)
When he was short of help, he trained some enormous ants to do all kinds of logging work. They weighed over 2,000 pounds apiece and ate nothing but the finest imported Swedish snuff. The ants did the work of 50 ordinary men. In the winter, Paul had them fitted with warm mackinaws to keep them from hibernating. (I don't know about you, but this has "handle animal" written all over it.)
Now, the guy was 50 feet tall, but the point is given; Paul Bunyan is starting to sound like a Ranger, except that he didn't dual-wield two axes.
Tatsukun
Danjin Masutaa
This reminds me of a family member of mine. He was watching Starwars Ep 1 and he kept yelling that a little boy COULDN’T pilot a ship that well.
He didn’t bat an eye as people used the force to fly, whipped out light sabers and sliced through everything, and all the rest of the stuff. He was in a mindset where he was willing to accept technology as being able to do anything, but he just couldn’t accept that human skill and ability could do anything.
Long story short, I would use the DC’s, I don’t find a level 100 thief climbing on a ceiling any more unbelievable than a level 100 wizard, say, destroying the whole world or something.
-Tatsu
He didn’t bat an eye as people used the force to fly, whipped out light sabers and sliced through everything, and all the rest of the stuff. He was in a mindset where he was willing to accept technology as being able to do anything, but he just couldn’t accept that human skill and ability could do anything.
Long story short, I would use the DC’s, I don’t find a level 100 thief climbing on a ceiling any more unbelievable than a level 100 wizard, say, destroying the whole world or something.
-Tatsu
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