Epic Tier experiences?

[Aegeri]

I've noticed that monsters with the new maths and the generally improved powers behave very differently at epic.

Old monsters boosted with the new maths - that is brutes gaining +2 accuracy and most things having double/triple static damage works. In fact I noticed that there was a much more exciting feeling to combat, monsters did enough damage that they weren't ignorable and I didn't need to jack the EL up. In fact the difference to damage is quite dramatic and makes fights feel less grindy as it's just more exciting. Status effects and good damage mean PCs use more powers in a fight - this actually reduces the "save every daily and dump" feeling that epic often has. I think you'll be seeing players employing powers more evenly over epic tier rather than just surviving on encounter powers now (except on the "big encounters").

Monster powers have also improved in MM3 and the combined effect of better powers, plus more damage has a very positive effect. I'm bringing the ELs right down, from treating EL + 4 encounters as "standard" to "Very difficult". A standard encounter is now challenging and fun - plus it isn't going to take the majority of a four hour session anymore. I can run more fun encounters that take me much less time.

Additionally the new stat block is amazing at epic. Epic creatures can be quite complicated but with the new stat block I never forget any rules now. Everything a creature does is in one place - this makes my turns much faster again and so I easily get through even a lot of complicated monsters.

Really if wizards fix solos to be more resistant to effects that aren't save ends - say by giving them a save regardless - the last major problem with epic tier is fixed.

 

[BrokeAndDrive]

...there should be very little combat in epic-tier, especially late epic-tier.

• This facial expression
• Pause, slow breathing, count to ten
• Re-reads
• Hard stare, followed by half-eye-closed & sinking-shoulder expression
• Slowly turns around and walks away, head down, hands in pockets, sniffles

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

One thing I can say about epic is: Pay your feat taxes! I'm running an epic adventure right now, in which I banned Expertise and static defense boosters. (It's a play test adventure.) They've begun to have real problems hitting monsters, and my attacks that target their NADs are just sick. Often I only miss on a 1 to 4, or even less. A couple PCs I only miss on a 1, and this is with L + 2 monsters!

If I was a vindictive DM, I'd use nothing but vs. NAD monsters, and my battle cry would be "I'm the IRS, have you paid your taxes?! Hahaha!"

 

[Solvarn]

My Campaign, which started at 1, is now at level 26. (we are playing thru the H1-E3 series from WOTC..halfway thru E2 right now).

And if only the campaign weren't so crowded I could come and play!

 

[MrMyth]

One thing I can say about epic is: Pay your feat taxes! I'm running an epic adventure right now, in which I banned Expertise and static defense boosters. (It's a play test adventure.) They've begun to have real problems hitting monsters, and my attacks that target their NADs are just sick. Often I only miss on a 1 to 4, or even less. A couple PCs I only miss on a 1, and this is with L + 2 monsters!

Ironically, my advice would be the opposite! I've got a level 26 campaign that started at level 1, and this means the PCs are really capable with their characters - with all the modifiers and circumstances and bonuses they can stack up in their favor, Expertise means they are almost automatically hitting enemies at their level.

Similarly, they have a lot of attack penalties they inflict or interrupts to hinder attacks or give themselves defense boosts, and once they realized they could patch up their weak defenses with the Epic Defense feats, the few defenses I could reliably hit have now joined the others as untouchable.

If I don't throw higher level monsters at them, or add in specific counters for their abilities, those feats help make encounters absolutely trivial. If I got the chance to start things over, I'd probably ban Expertise and the Epic Defense boosts entirely!

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Yeah, there seems to be significant disparity between casual players and optimizers at high levels. If you've got a group of optimizers who've played their characters for a while, and they've got a leader who focusses on handing out bonuses, combat can be easy. (I haven't experienced this, but I've heard it enough times to believe it's possible.)

If you've got a group of casual players who might have jumped right into epic play, with a leader who focusses on healing (or no leader at all), combat can be pretty grindy and frustrating.

 

[MrMyth]

Yeah, there seems to be significant disparity between casual players and optimizers at high levels. If you've got a group of optimizers who've played their characters for a while, and they've got a leader who focusses on handing out bonuses, combat can be easy. (I haven't experienced this, but I've heard it enough times to believe it's possible.)

If you've got a group of casual players who might have jumped right into epic play, with a leader who focusses on healing (or no leader at all), combat can be pretty grindy and frustrating.

Yeah - there will always be a range of capability in any system in which you have, well, any options available to characters and players. If you can choose to have a higher or a lower ability score, that means one character will be more accurate than the other - no avoiding that. 4E had a very good start with this - tying bonuses carefully to different types to avoid too much stacking, and making it so giving up bonuses in one area typically helped you elsewhere. Since then, the disparity has certainly grown... though I think it is still close enough overall to not be a gamebreaker. An average PC and an optimized PC can play the same table and both contribute to a fight, as opposed to requiring entirely different games to challenge them.

Nonetheless, some of the burden can end up on the DM. An entire party of optimized characters will require tougher challenges than a party of PCs fresh out of the box.

In general, the ability of a 4E party involves both how characters are built, and how they are played. A party of highly-optimized characters who simply rush in and hit things will do about as well as a part of non-optimized characters who use quality tactics in battle. On the other hand, a party of non-optimized and non-tactical characters will have troubles.

Still, I've found that to be rare. In the game I'm running, the group actually doesn't have a leader at all! But by epic-levels, most characters are bringing something to the table that will help the party or weaken the enemy, or provide at least some sort of boost. And even a non-optimized party can learn the tricks to regularly get combat advantage on their enemies, or focus fire at the biggest threats, and so forth.

The real danger, I think, comes from diving right into epic level play. That's always going to be tricky. You haven't had the time to get to know the character, how it works or what it is capable of, much less how it can work alongside the rest of the party to best effect. You haven't had the chance to adapt to the rhythm of higher level combat, to know how to respond in most situations. That's going to create grind more than any raw numerical issues, and more than any specific combination of PCs you actually have. Trying to draw any conclusions about the system from that just isn't going to be useful - the group is stepping into the game with an already existing handicap, and the DM will probably need to softball things and give them a chance to adjust.

 

[Herschel]

Exactly, MrMyth.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

The real danger, I think, comes from diving right into epic level play.

No doubt there is more of a learning curve when you dive right into high level play. Unfortunately for some of us, diving right in is the only way we ever get to play high levels. (I've never played an 11+ level campaign that started at 1st level, in any edition. Not once. )

 

[MrMyth]

No doubt there is more of a learning curve when you dive right into high level play. Unfortunately for some of us, diving right in is the only way we ever get to play high levels. (I've never played an 11+ level campaign that started at 1st level, in any edition. Not once. )

Yeah, and I'm not saying you shouldn't have any games that start right out at Epic. I think 4E actually makes it a lot more accessible than before - you can do it, you just need to somewhat expect that things may need to be toned down for a bit until the PCs really find their synergy and start to feel their characters come together.