Epic War Hulk Badness

[Seule]

WotC has just released a couple of previews including most of the War Hulk PrC, here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a.
The problem I see with it is that instead of having a BAB (+0 all the way) it gets +2 Strength every level. This may work fine, until you get into Epic levels. I can see an Epic Ogre (4 racial HD, 16 levels fighter, +2 LA) taking War Hulk levels, because they still get their Epic Attack Bonus, as well as the Strength. This seems just a tad unbalanced. Said ogre will quickly outstrip any other melee types in effectiveness over the 10 levels of the PrC, and that's without taking the special attacks of the class into account. It takes an epic feat to advance your strength by one, so the Ogre is getting the equivalent of two every level!
Any comments? Am I on crack? Did they just miss this?

--Seule

 

[Technik4]

Sounds like a quirk of the epic rules, I think the class looks great for regular play!

Technik

 

[Seule]

True, it does look great for regular play, and I suspect I'll be applying it to some NPCs, as well as suggesting it to the ogre PC I run in a Savage Species game. It's the Epic ramifications that worry me.

 

[Dthamilaye]

Yeah, I noticed it too and immediately notified one of my players in my campaign that it could be nice after 20th level .
That PrC is just unbelievable if taken at epic levels. Blows all epic PrCs for large fighters away .

Of course, we play bit more high powered (not necessarily munchkin) campaign than normal. He is a Dwarf/Half-dragon Bbn/Fgt/Wiz/Planar champion now.

 

[drnuncheon]

I think that I'd be more inclined to adjust the class to have a +1/2 BAB and +1 Str every level. That way it doesn't break nearly so badly at epic levels.

Alternately, I'd adjust the rules to specify that the epic war hulk does not get a BAB. I notice that there's an ability called 'No Time to Think' which isn't described - maybe that explains the +0 BAB and would allow for the class to go epic with a +0 EAB.

 

[Seule]

That would make sense, I think I'd have to apply that anyway to an Epic War Hulk. +1 str and 1/2 BAB seems like a poor compromise, but no EAB would fix the problem.

--Seule

 

[CrimsonTemplar]

Exactly, who needs BAB when they get +2 Str every level? The only thing they lose out on is they can't add str bonus to the opposed check for Feints. <sarcasm>Waaah!</sarcasm>

 

[Seule]

Exactly, who needs BAB when they get +2 Str every level? The only thing they lose out on is they can't add str bonus to the opposed check for Feints. <sarcasm>Waaah!</sarcasm>

Actually, the primary thing they lose out on is iterative attacks. This is a big deal. An Ogre fighter and an Ogre Fighter/War Hulk are going to have 4 and 2 iterative attacks respectively. The War Hulk will have better damage and they'll have the same overall attack bonus.

--Seule

 

[kigmatzomat]

Actually, the primary thing they lose out on is iterative attacks. This is a big deal. An Ogre fighter and an Ogre Fighter/War Hulk are going to have 4 and 2 iterative attacks respectively. The War Hulk will have better damage and they'll have the same overall attack bonus.
--Seule

But the War Hulk gets a number of whirlwind-like attacks. Great Swing is a second level ability that affects 3 squares simultaneously while Massive Swing at 10th attacks all targets in range (Epic Whirlwind with a different name, I think). The rock throwing being able to hit multiple squares is another nifty. And since it's squares, these War Hulks rock vs. critters smaller than 5x5. Not so good against other giants.

There's an Ogre Paladin who might be acquiring this when his Paladin levels get high enough.

 

[youspoonybard]

Doesn't the "You have no ranks in any mental skills" really bite, even at epic?

Note: That's what the "No Time to Think" ability is...It's in the progression, but not the rest of it...


Here it is. "No time to think (Ex): A character with levels in the war hulk prestige class is considered to have 0 ranks in all Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based skills (whether or not he has bought ranks in them previously). The only exception is Intimidate skill, which works normally."