Eric Noah's Info

[Nellisir]

I was thinking about this the other day. Wouldn't it be extremely difficult to package a random assortment of miniatures AND make sure there are stat cards for each of them? Or am I just out of touch with the whole collectible minis thing?
Tom

Long time no see, Blu.

They already do this with D&D Minis. Each box has X random figures and the stat cards for those figures. The DDM stats are on one side, the D&D stats are on the other. The DDM stats are a very cut down extrapolation of the D&D stats, with a more legible and graphic presentation.

Pick up a booster of minis. They're pretty cool.

 

[Banshee16]

With the girth of the Monster Manual you wouldn't need to randomize the entire thing (even though this would lose some of the single SKU benefits). You could have a 5 out of 6 or 7 out of 8 random pack or something. One of the windows shows something like an orc that travels in packs, or maybe an NPC that's common. Then the rest are random, or semi random (random, but coming from a relatively limited set that is linked to visible mini). I have NEVER bought, or even looked at a DDM case, so maybe this is how they work already?

What this does is let people that are somewhat casual get in without it being a total crapshoot. But it still feeds the Lottery Ticket monkey and plays off the Gotta Catch 'Em All drive key segments of the market.

I'm not sure about Feats going to cards, because Feats as of now are fairly persistant. But using them for one-time spending specialized Stunts would be cool. Even if they get cycled back into a deck, or just held and then used for a payout for a reward instead of, or supplementing XP rewards for PC actions. Like many other RPGs, only now it becomes a revenue stream. Plus once again you can get into the Lottery Ticket and Gotta Catch 'Em All market.

Although I asked about the possibility that maybe this is the way they might take things, I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm *happy* about that direction *if* that's the way they take things. It'll personally end my support as a customer for their company.

I picked up a few of the minis at the beginning when all the broo-hah hah came out. I've got a few packs of Angelfire, a basic set, and underdark, and maybe one others. Really, when it comes down to it, I need them to indicate positioning on a grid. It doesn't really matter (to me) whether or not they exactly match the monster I'm using in the encounter. The whole randomized aspect really ticked me off, and became pretty evident as a blatant cash grab....not that it's against the law. Hey some people like that kind of thing. But I stopped the whole "collecting random hockey cards" thing when I was about 13, and at 31, have no interest in doing that anymore.

I'd just prefer well thought out, functional, *complete* rulebooks and adventures. The minis themselves are actually edition independent, so I could likely use them into 10th edition.

Hopefully the whole thing was just a bad rumour.

As a final note, just to avoid ruffling any feathers, by saying that at 31 I'm not interested in collectible cards like I was at 13, I do not mean to imply that other gamers who are adults are silly for doing so. I understand that everyone has their preferences...I just don't like it on a personal level.

Banshee

 

[librarius_arcana]

I often browse through books and ooh and ah over the pretty pictures and then go buy a paperback. I do the same thing at clubs. Ooh and ah over the 10s in the bikini contest, then go home with a 2 who can cook.

Wa!!

She must be so lucky to have a guy like you

 

[Uder]

I just heard from a high-up at WotC. He says the info is so wrong that he suspects that my source is out to torpedo "my reputation" by giving me something this far off the mark.

It might not specifically be your source, or it might not be personal. I've heard the same sort of stuff for up to six months now from "friends of friends", or more precisely distributers to a couple of friends who own game shops. Somebody out there either has an axe to grind or has something to gain from the warm fuzzies that will occur when the disinformation is proved false.

I would never ever trust anything a distributor says, no matter what type of precious stone they're named after, because I've heard too many self-serving lies from them in the past.

 

[librarius_arcana]

Yeah, the revised SW game was such a failure their revising it AGAIN. What does that tell you about how it went last time for them?

You know, this new edition may be using the 4th ed rules,

I don't think the current d20 version of this game is/was selling that well,
you've got to remember it costs a lot of money to get a title like this, and not make money because of the system used, and not change it is dumb,

Ya know if they re-released this as D6 it would sell like hot cakes,

 

[Knightfall]

As a theoretical discussion...

One problem with the same info spread out over more (and smaller) books is that it makes the DM's job harder. The DM already has to fold/shuffle in every new feat, class, race, spell, monster, rule etc. that he chooses to add to his game. That's a lot of significant information storage and retrieval going on. It is hard enough to truly and fully integrate a new sourcebook like Lords of Madness into the core rules as it is.

That's true, but also think of this possibility.

We all know that D&D 3E is designed with very specific "parts" such as races, classes, skills, feats, spells, and the like and not everyone likes all aspects of current version (or previous editions) of D&D. Not everyone likes PrCs or the Vancian spell system, for example, for D&D 3E.

Now, imagine that the 4E core rulebooks have only the most "basic" structure of what makes the edition, D&D. In the PHB, things like ability scores, standard races, core classes, skills, basic combat rules, equipment, and any other basic rules are included. Things like feats, prestige classes, spells, and non-core classes aren't part of the "core" of D&D. Instead, these options are "add-on rulesets" that integrate seemlessly into the basics of the game, sort of how psionics is a add-on system.

For example, the creatures in the 4E Monster Manual wouldn't have any feats listed or any rules for how to use monsters as PC races. (It might list how many feats the creature is suppose to have, if the DM decided to use feats in their game. i.e. # of Feats: 5) There would be a 4E Feats Sourcebook that would describe how to add the feats ruleset into the "basic" rules system and might give example feats for a few of the iconic monsters. There would be a "Savage Species"-style sourcebook that would have an add-on ruleset for using monsters as PC races.

New books would be made for the option of including prestige classes or new, non-core base classes. The DM could use one or the other, or both, depending on how he/she want the game to be run. Vancian spells would have their own sourcebook, but there would also be more "spell" options such as a Spell Points sourcebook and a Channeling sourcebook. You pick which version of spellcasting you want to use in your game.

Psionics would have it's own sourcebook (or even two or three different options, like spells), of course, as would the Epic rules. New add-on systems will be built on the basics, with the ability to integrate the Feats sourcebook into them by having new feat-based sourcebooks (i.e. an Epic Feats sourcebook). There would be seperate sourcebooks for prestige classes and non-core base classes that builds on the new systems.

The Power of such a 4E game would be customization. Players and DMs would only have to buy the "add-on rulesets" they want, and forget the rest. There would be some crossover regarding feats, clesses, spells, and the like but most of those crossovers would be for unique playing options that reward players and DMs for using multiple "add-on rulesets" in their game. Plus, WotC would gain the benefit of having more books to sell to a wider base of players. 4E feat & prestige class sourcebooks would, basically, be compatible with D&D 3.x, while new, unique 4E rulesets would be considered Closed, regarding the OGL. (I don't believe 4E will be Open.)

The Drawback of such a 4E game would be complexity. Players and DMs would have to come to an agreement on which rules to use BEFORE the game could even start. And what if the DM decides that he doesn't want feats and prestige classes in the game, but his players insist on using those rulesets? Plus, the game would have less portablity from game table to game table, as each D&D game will become uniquely different. Plus, some sourcebooks will likely not sell as well, and WotC will decide to drop those rulesets from their support of the game. Plus, how do you address campaign settings and other types of sourcebooks such as the Draconomicon?

Another related problem is the publisher managing that info and doing a good job of testing each new rule against each other existing rule. The more it's chopped up, the easier I think it would be to make some major mistakes.

Agreed.

Cheers!

KF72

 

[BobROE]

Now, imagine that the 4E core rulebooks have only the most "basic" structure of what makes the edition, D&D. In the PHB, things like ability scores, standard races, core classes, skills, basic combat rules, equipment, and any other basic rules are included. Things like feats, prestige classes, spells, and non-core classes aren't part of the "core" of D&D. Instead, these options are "add-on rulesets" that integrate seemlessly into the basics of the game, sort of how psionics is a add-on system.

See the problem with this is that it's not really good for the seller. Really what they want is for everyone to buy every book. So really it makes sense to have the books be as interconnected as possible so to use the cool thing in book #4 you have to own books #2 and #3.

 

[dvvega]

Making books interconnected isn't hard at all.

Look at the d20 Modern set of splatbooks with the requirement of d20 Future. There are 4? I think that require you to have purchased something else besides the core book.

 

[Kanegrundar]

You know, this new edition may be using the 4th ed rules,

I don't think the current d20 version of this game is/was selling that well,
you've got to remember it costs a lot of money to get a title like this, and not make money because of the system used, and not change it is dumb,

Ya know if they re-released this as D6 it would sell like hot cakes,

Actually, SW D20 has worked out really well for WotC. A game like that has to be updated to stay current to what's happening with the movies. Granted, I'm surprised a new editoin didn't come out aournd the same time as Ep3. However, there are several instances where the rules are contradictory to what we see in the movies, and therefore needs an update. Not to mention the introduction of new characters, species, creatures, droids, force powers, and so on that fans will want to see in their games.

Check out the prices for some of the SW line through Amazon Marketplace and ebay. Secrets of Tatooine was going for $80 + at one point (not sure now). Books that no-one is looking for don't go for prices like that.

SW D20, may not have been WotC's biggest seller, but by many indications on this board alone it sold well. Minis simply sell better.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I don't know what WotC is thinking from a system but I can see the "smaller chunks of data" concept being plausible without resorting to cards and foil packs. I think the old D&D boxes provide a decent guideline.

"core rules" with all the chargen, equipment, feats (up to 5th level), combat mechanics and possibly magic items.

"magic" with the caster classes, magic rules and the spells up to 3rd level.

"adventurer" with the non-caster classes, basic combat tips and feat combos.

"DMG" would include game running advice in DMG1 & 2 as well as the C1/4-CR7 monsters.

"Advanced" book that covers 5th-15th level feats, PrCs and monsters CR8-18.

"Expert" is the 16-25th feats, PrCs with really high pre-reqs (aka "epic"), and monsters CR19-30.

Assuming the first four are $10 and the last two are $15 means you'll likely wind up selling everyone core, magic, adventurer, and advanced for $45 right out of the gate, plus about 1/4 people will need the $10 DMG so assume $190 for every 4 gamers. Not bad since you're basically selling the PHB, DMG, and MMI in page count.

At some point you will introduce AdvancedII and ExpertII with additional PrCs, feats, monsters and RP/DM advice. Possibly you break it up into Advanced/Expert-Magic, Advanced/Expert-Adventurer and Advanced/Expert-DMG so the price point stays near the impulse buy.

Yeah, I'm going to shell out more money but it will be easier to get new players to buy into the game.

Actually, I won't shell out more money anytime soon since my 3.0 game is running just fine, thanks. I still don't own a 3.5 PHB or DMG/