Peraion Graufalke
First Post
At the risk of repeating myself: check the "Other Sources" entry on page 57 of HoFL. It's legal to select powers of the same class, level, and type from other sources, and the new CB is wrong.
Essentials Thief can't take Trap Master?
- Thread starter Prestidigitalis
- Start date
At the risk of repeating myself: check the "Other Sources" entry on page 57 of HoFL. It's legal to select powers of the same class, level, and type from other sources, and the new CB is wrong.
Klaus
First Post
Peraion is correct. Slip From The Grasp is noted as a Rogue Utility 16, so it can be switched with any Rogue Utility 16 power.
kaomera
Explorer
Yeah, a lot of people think that if you can't choose a power from a list (because you are only given one option) then, by RAW, you can't use other sources. IMO the text isn't clear one way or the other and I'd personally allow the choice in this case, but I do see where issues could crop up in other cases, so I'm not really sure where RAI lies.
Actually, I agree with this completely.
Yes, traps has traditionally been the rogues "stick", but to me thats just a "pre-4e" convention. Railroading a rogue into the trap monkey roll I dont like at all. Try playing a Rogue in DDO online, if you aint a trap-monkey, you wont get much of a go of it.
What this means if that if you want this really cool "trap handling ability" in your group, you have to take a rogue, and to me thats a bit against the grain of 4e's open party design (by "open party design" I mean that groups can be composed far more by player preference. Pre-4e a party could not exist with a cleric...but they can now)
IMHO the ability to deal with traps is a subset of the thieving skill, not the rogue class.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Actually it is quite clear, the rules text says "Whenever you choose a new class power, you can select it from the list", but level 16 Thief utility power is not chosen from a list. It is specified to be Slip From the Grasp in the level advancement table. There is no list to choose from, this power is a class feature. Yes, it is a level 16 rogue utility power, but it is also a class feature of the Thief. A PHB1 rogue could pick this power at level 16, but an Essentials Thief simply gets it. CB is thus following RAW.
Note that this interpretation is clearly correct RAW because otherwise a Mage at level 1 could simply swap out Magic Missile for some other level 1 at-will Wizard power, something which clearly is not allowed. If you are going to play E-classes, then you simply don't get very many choices to play with when using Martial classes.
This whole topic was beaten to death back around September of last year. It's old school!
kaomera
Explorer
While I can see your point, I disagree that it's completely clear. The level 16 thief utility is a single-item list, that could be to limit you to that single power, or it could be simply a matter of simplification. There are certainly single-item lists where I wouldn't allow a swap, but this isn't one of them. I do not think that the wording of the other sources sidebar is specific enough to be a clear indication of which single-item lists are specific class features and which are just simplifications.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Pg. 57 should really solve this issue.
Any class power with an explicit level can be swapped out for another class power of that level, no problem.
If it's a LV 16 utility, you can get any rogue level 16 utility instead.
Even if your choice from a list is originally just one choice.
Because otherwise it would just be a "thief utility" without a level.
If there's a level, it's meant to be swap-able.
Any class power with an explicit level can be swapped out for another class power of that level, no problem.
If it's a LV 16 utility, you can get any rogue level 16 utility instead.
Even if your choice from a list is originally just one choice.
Because otherwise it would just be a "thief utility" without a level.
If there's a level, it's meant to be swap-able.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
I don't think trap master should be a skill power. Thievery works just fine without it, it just happens to make you extra-good with it if you DO take it.
In fact, singling out this particular ability for skill-power treatment looks to me like a classic case of "anyone can do martial stuff, but martial characters can only do martial stuff" happening.
Compare with, say, the heal skill. I'm not seeing anything on par with cleric surge-spending powers on the skill power list. Or a warlock's teleport utilities. Or a wizard's wall-creation utilities. There's a couple of similar sorts of things, but they pale in comparison with the utility from the appropriate class.
In fact, singling out this particular ability for skill-power treatment looks to me like a classic case of "anyone can do martial stuff, but martial characters can only do martial stuff" happening.
Compare with, say, the heal skill. I'm not seeing anything on par with cleric surge-spending powers on the skill power list. Or a warlock's teleport utilities. Or a wizard's wall-creation utilities. There's a couple of similar sorts of things, but they pale in comparison with the utility from the appropriate class.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
When you have a CHOICE. Again, if you go by this interpretation then Magic Missile is an option which can be swapped out for a different at-will, clearly not the case. When Essentials says to choose a Level X power of type Y then you have a power choice. When the class level chart says you get Power X, period it is simply a class feature, not a power choice. The fact that the power mentioned has a level specified is not relevant.
