Essentials Thief can't take Trap Master?

[I'm A Banana]

When you have a CHOICE.

You always have the choice, because when the power is given a level, its' a choice between that power and every other class power of that level.

Otherwise, the power is not given a level.

But, look, I'm not going to go all Is Polearm Gambit Possible on this thread. If you don't believe me, that's fine, you don't have to allow them to switch out the power, but I will, because I don't like arbitrary limitations that hide in nefarious rulespeak, even if the power isn't intended to be switch-able.

I suppose if the bug gets fixed, that'll solve the argument at least from WotC's perspective.

In fact, singling out this particular ability for skill-power treatment looks to me like a classic case of "anyone can do martial stuff, but martial characters can only do martial stuff" happening.

Compare with, say, the heal skill. I'm not seeing anything on par with cleric surge-spending powers on the skill power list. Or a warlock's teleport utilities. Or a wizard's wall-creation utilities. There's a couple of similar sorts of things, but they pale in comparison with the utility from the appropriate class.

Well, the power in reference explicitly references a skill. Cleric and warlord healing powers don't mention the Heal skill, a Wizard's wall-creation doesn't mention the Arcana skill, a warlock's teleport doesn't meantion the Athletics skill....

Though honestly I wouldn't have a lot of inherent problem with assigning key skills to class ability lists -- if you've got training in Arcana, you, too, can learn Magic Missile! -- but it would require some balance-rejiggering.

As of now, though, letting a fighter trained in Thievery take a power that improves that skill is entirely within the realm of a power based on a skill.

 

[thewok]

You always have the choice, because when the power is given a level, its' a choice between that power and every other class power of that level.

Otherwise, the power is not given a level.

But, look, I'm not going to go all Is Polearm Gambit Possible on this thread. If you don't believe me, that's fine, you don't have to allow them to switch out the power, but I will, because I don't like arbitrary limitations that hide in nefarious rulespeak, even if the power isn't intended to be switch-able.

I suppose if the bug gets fixed, that'll solve the argument at least from WotC's perspective.

Abdul is correct in this regard. The Thief is not presented with a list of options--not even a "single-item list." The advancement table specifies Slip from the Grasp. This is the same as Warpriests and Sentinels gaining their resurrection utilities at level 8. There is no option; it is simply what they get.

The level advancement table is the key here. When a choice is presented, the table says something like "Rogue ultility power." When the power itself is mentioned in the table, it is considered a class feature and not eligible for retraining or other options. To be more correct (and confusing), the Thief gains a class feature at level 16 called Slip from the Grasp. That feature grants the utility power Slip from the Grasp.

Now, would I allow a Thief to take a different power at 16? Sure. But that's a plain and simple house rule, just like the one where Slayers and Knights can take each other's stances. As RAW goes, however, you get it, and you will like it.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Actually it is quite clear, the rules text says "Whenever you choose a new class power, you can select it from the list", but level 16 Thief utility power is not chosen from a list. It is specified to be Slip From the Grasp in the level advancement table. There is no list to choose from, this power is a class feature. Yes, it is a level 16 rogue utility power, but it is also a class feature of the Thief. A PHB1 rogue could pick this power at level 16, but an Essentials Thief simply gets it. CB is thus following RAW.

Note that this interpretation is clearly correct RAW because otherwise a Mage at level 1 could simply swap out Magic Missile for some other level 1 at-will Wizard power, something which clearly is not allowed. If you are going to play E-classes, then you simply don't get very many choices to play with when using Martial classes.

This whole topic was beaten to death back around September of last year. It's old school!

Actually this topic is far more old school than that, and was beaten to death with the PHB 1. The Warlock gets a fixed (now variable from a list of 2) level one attack power, and a level 1 attack power based on their pact. These are fixed not optional, so a starpact Warlock can not swap out their power for Eyebite if they want to go all Charisma despite eyebite and dire radiance both being Warlock level 1 at will powers. And likewise they can't get rid of Eldritch Blast for another Warlock attack.

 

[The Halfling]

Actually this topic is far more old school than that, and was beaten to death with the PHB 1. The Warlock gets a fixed (now variable from a list of 2) level one attack power, and a level 1 attack power based on their pact. These are fixed not optional, so a starpact Warlock can not swap out their power for Eyebite if they want to go all Charisma despite eyebite and dire radiance both being Warlock level 1 at will powers. And likewise they can't get rid of Eldritch Blast for another Warlock attack.

This is correct, since the power is tied to the warlocks pact, which is a class feature and cannot be retrained.

The same applies to a thief. Slip from the grasp is a class feature for the thief and so cannot be swapped in any fashion. Since it does have a level associated with it, the rogue class can take it ( I verified in the CB).

From the Compendium (thief entry):

LEVEL 6 THIEF UTILITY POWER
You gain one of the following powers of your choice.

LEVEL 10 THIEF UTILITY POWER
You gain one of the following powers of your choice.

SLIP FROM THE GRASP
You gain the slip from the grasp power.

The latter comes at the level you would normally get a lvl 16 utility, but given the way it is written, it implies class feature. You get what you get. It does follow the E-classes design though. The thief is a focused class, while the rogue is more versatile.

 

[DracoSuave]

At the risk of repeating myself: check the "Other Sources" entry on page 57 of HoFL. It's legal to select powers of the same class, level, and type from other sources, and the new CB is wrong.

This is true, if and only if, you are choosing a power for that level. The text, despite what people claim, is pretty clear about that.

"Whenever you choose a new class power, you may select it from a list in this book, or you may..." yadda yadda this stuff we know.

At level 16, the thief has a class feature named Slip from the Grasp. It says this:

'Benefit: You gain the slip from the grasp power.'

Contrast with the class feature at level 10, named Utility Power which states:

'Benefit: You gain one of the powers of your choice.'

You are not choosing a new class power, so the rule that allows you to use other sources does not trigger and does not apply.

You can no more take another level 16 thief power than a sun warpriest can take a storm warpriest encounter power. It's not a list of powers, it's not a choice.

If they'd intended for you to have a choice... you'd have a choice. The catch is, those powers do have class, level, and types because other rogues can select them by the rule.

Is it fair? Who cares, it's an essentials class, if you wanted choice you'd have gone PHB.


Let's be clear about this, the warlock and the shaman, as noted above, are operating under the exact same rule. If your class says you get a specific power, you get that power and that's it. If your class says you get a choice of powers, you get a choice of powers, obviously.

Regardless, even if you have a general rule that says you can select powers, by having a specific class feature that states 'You get this exact power' guess what happens? Here's a hint. You do what the specific feature says, NOT what the general rule states. You ALWAYS do what the specific feature says. You always have. You always will. Changing the size of the books and making them paperback hasn't changed that rule one bit.

 

[Scribble]

Draco has spoken. So shall it be.

 

[Peraion Graufalke]

Point taken. I was wrong.

Now I'm in favor of turning Trap Master into a skill power.

 

[Mirtek]

It's just like the warpriest being unable to take any other first level cleric at-will attack (and that's despite there being the perfect at-will counting as a MBA that would free him from melee training feat tax)

 

[DracoSuave]

Melee Training is overrated for the majority of classes, even melee ones. I can see defenders wanting it pretty badly, but unless you're in the business of dispensing OAs, or you're in the business of having a specific build of specific leader classes dispense free MBAs, it's just not something you particularily need or care about.

Feat taxes are for things you need. The term you're looking for is feat luxury. You don't need it, it's just nice to have.

And if you do need it, you're a specific group make-up anyways.

And if you're playing an essentials-heavy group, good news: You're NOT that specific group make-up. And if your leader is a warpriest, good news: You're NOT that specific group make-up. Warpriests aren't handing out MBAs, and certainly not to themselves.

 

[drothgery]

Melee Training is overrated for the majority of classes, even melee ones. I can see defenders wanting it pretty badly, but unless you're in the business of dispensing OAs, or you're in the business of having a specific build of specific leader classes dispense free MBAs, it's just not something you particularily need or care about.

I can't see any defender other than a Battlemind wanting Melee Training, really.

Fighters, Wardens, and some Paladins are strength-based.
Charisma-based Paladins have an at-will that can be used as a melee basic attack.
Swordmages have access to Intelligent Blademaster, which is better than Melee Training (does Int damage, can be used for ranged attacks with heavy thrown weapons).