Estimating the value of the core feats?

[Physiker]

My Beguiler loves Still/Silent Spells. Of course he gets them without burning a feat slot for it, but I think I would give them a illusionist or sorcerer which uses illusion a lot too.
Be aware that you can pick Rapid Metamagic at 9th level.
And for the wizard, a silent teleport isn't a bad choise for one of your 6th level spells.

Improved Sunder is something only a fight should choose, because there are other feats which any other class should choose first, but after all improved sunder gives you more versatilely in your melee attacks. And since this is the only thing a fighter cares about, nice choice.

 

[green slime]

I'd disagree, fighting against hydras or kraken let you value this feat.
Because you are able to target several weak "creatures" instead of one strong.

So Improved Sunder depends on circumstances but is not useless.

Or could be said to be so specific as to be next to useless. How many times will a character be fighting kraken or hydras?

 

[Physiker]

Since one can kill you, or your mage, it's not the question how often you fight one. It's just a question of how fexible you want your fighter to be.

And if your group thinks it's worthless to take, perhaps improve it so that you can end all grapples and not only those from specific monsters.

 

[green slime]

Since one can kill you, or your mage, it's not the question how often you fight one. It's just a question of how fexible you want your fighter to be.

...? There are a lot more important feats that grant more flexibility than improved Sunder. I'd take Improved Grapple well before I'd even look at Improved Sunder.

And if your group thinks it's worthless to take, perhaps improve it so that you can end all grapples and not only those from specific monsters.

ummm... except we were discussing the relative value of core feats, not "fixing" them.

 

[harpy]

I'm compiling different rating's for the feats and I figured I'd share how some of them stack up to each other.

After each feat are three values:

Borogove's (0-3 rating)
Sean K. Renolds (1-10)
Netbook of Feats Power Rating (1-5)

It's interesting looking at how they differ. I'm mainly in agreement with Borogove's ratings as they reflect how the game is really played.

SKR's ratings have a particular method to them, he cites his specific reasons for the values, but they seem to take the feats into isolation. He also has a few moments where a strong bias is emphasized. His rating system also reflects a "feat buy" system, so it's more like a rating of 1-5 +5 for the purposes of purchasing the feat.

The Netbook of Feats ratings are based off of a forum of editors. They seem to be very conservative in their values and also take the feats in isolation to one another. Their power rating is just one of five values they rate the feat for the purposes of their vast catalog.

Combat Feats [general feats]

Blind-Fight 1/8/5
Combat Expertise 1/9/5
Improved Disarm 0/8/5
Improved Feint 0/7/4
Improved Trip 2/8/5
Whirlwind Attack 1/9/4.5
Combat Reflexes 2/7/5
Dodge 0/7/4.25
Mobility 1/8/5
Spring Attack 1/9/4.75
Improved Critical 2/10/3.5
Improved Initiative 3/8/5
Improved Unarmed Strike0/7/4.5
Deflect Arrows 1/7/4
Snatch Arrows0/6/4.25
Improved Grapple 2/8/3.5
Stunning Fist 2/8/4.5
Mounted Combat 1/5/4.75
Mounted Archery 0/6/4.75
Ride-By Attack 1/8/5
Spirited Charge 2/8/4.5
Trample 0/6/4.75
Point Blank Shot 1/9/5
Far Shot 0/6/5
Precise Shot 2/10/5
Improved Precise Shot 1/8/4
Rapid Shot 3/11/4.25
Manyshot 2/12/4.25
Shot On The Run 1/8/4.5
Power Attack 3/10/4.5
Cleave 3/8/4.25
Great Cleave 1/6/4.25
Improved Bull Rush 0/8/4.75
Improved Overrun 0/8/4.25
Improved Sunder 0/8/4.5
Quick Draw 1/7/3.75
Rapid Reload 0/7/4.25
Improved Shield Bash 1/8/4.5
Two-Weapon Fighting 3/11/4.75
Two-Weapon Defense 0/7/3.5
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 2/10/4.25
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting 1/10/4.5
Weapon Finesse 3/9/5
Weapon Focus 0/10/4.25
Weapon Specialization 0/10/4.75
Greater Weapon Focus 0/10/4.75
Greater Weapon Specialization 0/10/4.75

Item Creation Feats

Brew Potion 1/9/4.75
Craft Magic Arms And Armor 3/10/4.75
Craft Rod 2/7/4.75
Craft Staff 1/9/4.75
Craft Wand 2/10/4.75
Craft Wondrous Item 3/10/4.75
Forge Ring 1/7/4.75
Scribe Scroll 3/10/5

Metamagic Feats

Empower Spell 2 or 3/5/4.75
Enlarge Spell 0/5/4.25
Extend Spell 2 or 3/5/4.5
Heighten Spell 0/5/4
Maximize Spell 0/5/5
Quicken Spell 3/5/4.5
Silent Spell 1/5/5
Still Spell 1/5/5
Widen Spell 0/5/3.75


Skill Feats [general feats]

Acrobatic 0/9/5
Agile 0/9/5
Alertness 0/9/5
Animal Affinity 0/9/5
Athletic 0/9/5
Deceitful 0/9/5
Deft Hands 0/9/5
Diligent 0/9/5
Investigator 0/9/5
Magical Aptitude 0/9/5
Negotiator 0/9/5
Nimble Fingers 0/9/5
Persuasive 0/9/5
Self-Sufficient 0/9/5
Skill Focus 0/10/5
Stealthy 0/9/5


Saving Throw Feats [general feats]

Great Fortitude 1/10/4.75
Iron Will 1/10/4.75
Lightning Reflexes 1/10/4.75

Proficiency Feats [general feats]

Armor Proficiency (Light) 0/5/5
Armor Proficiency (Medium) 0/7/5
Armor Proficiency (Heavy) 0/9/5
Exotic Weapon Proficiency 0/9/4.75
Martial Weapon Proficiency 0/6/5
Simple Weapon Proficiency 0/7/5
Shield Proficiency 0/5/5
Tower Shield Proficiency0/5/3.75


Spellcasting Feats [general feats]

Combat Casting 1/10/4.75
Eschew Materials 0/4/4
Improved Counterspell 1/7/3.75
Natural Spell 3 or 4/5/4.25
Spell Focus 1/7/5
Greater Spell Focus 1/7/4
Augment Summoning 2/7/5
Spell Mastery 0/4/4
Spell Penetration 1/8/5
Greater Spell Penetration 1/8/5

Turning Feats [general feats]

Extra Turning 1 or 2/10/4.75
Improved Turning 1/8/3.5

Perseverance Feats [general feats]

Endurance 0/5/3.25
Diehard 0/7/4
Toughness 0/6/3.25

Miscellaneous Feats [general feats]

Leadership 3/8/4.5
Run 0/5/4
Track 1/7/4.75
Improved Familiar 1/-/4.5

 

[Shin Okada]

I'm compiling different rating's for the feats and I figured I'd share how some of them stack up to each other.

I'm mainly in agreement with Borogove's ratings as they reflect how the game is really played.

Amongst those 3 ratings, Borogove's one seems to be the most reasonable.

Still, the value of feats changes largely, depend on which supplements you will use, what kind of campaign you will play, in which level range you will play, etc.

For example, with only core rules, Many Shot maybe not so useful. But if you are a Scout (CA), that will become a better choice than Rapid Shot. And if you combine it with Greater Many Shot feat (surprisingly, it is in Complete Psionics for some unknown reason), that feat tree is almost no-brainer.

Also, there are feats which is useful for DM controlled creatures but not so for PCs. For example, Blind-Fight rarely helps a PC, as he must first ascertain the opponent's location anyway, and the party spellcasters tend to deal with invisible foes via spells. But giving it to monsters is a good thing for a DM. Many monsters either have Listen as their class skill. Or, having more hit dice than it's CR, can take reasonably high Listen modifier even if that is a cross class skill. And not all the critters can have magical supports like PC adventurers have.

Amongst metamagic feats, I wonder why Heighten Spell is valued so low. It maybe not so useful for Clerics, Druids or WIzards. But it is a kind of must-have feat for Sorcerers.

 

[Runestar]

It maybe not so useful for Clerics, Druids or WIzards. But it is a kind of must-have feat for Sorcerers.

I don't see how it can be all that useful.

Its uses seem quite limited. You either use it to augment the dc of a lower lv spell (say you are capable of casting 3rd lv spells, but feel that sleep is more useful than fireball, and are willing to heighten it to a 3rd lv slot to improve the dc), or to punch through lv-based immunity effects like globe of invulnerability or spell immunity (though this assumes that your higher lv spells are of limited use here).

The latter isn't all that common (unless the DM has a penchant for throwing angels against you). The former...not too sure.

Are there some uses I am overlooking?

 

[Shin Okada]

I don't see how it can be all that useful.

Mainly to raise the DC of lower level spells. And to compress a Sorcerer's spells known slots.

In case of Sorcerers, the number of spells known are very limited. So they cannot enjoy having variety of spells known in each level. They must use their limited spells known in the maximum effect.

In 3.Xe damaging spells are not the most powerful damage dealer. Arcane casters are in overall better at using save or "die/neutralized/highly defuffed" spells than to use nukes. Nukes are still useful. But one casting of save or XXX spell can be enough to change the tide of battle.

Spells like Grease, Glitterdust, Blindness/Deafness, slow, web etc. are versatile enough and often make the target(s) effectively eliminated from battle or at least make them significantly weak. Have at least one each of Fort, Ref and Will save spells, preferably those effective against variety of foes including constructs, elementals & undeads, etc (thus, you should avoid enchantments). Better if those spells don't allow SR. If you can heighten such spells, you can aim the enemy's (supposedly) weakest save with your highest spell save DC on the fly.

Also, that way, you now have many room in your spells known slots to include other damaging spells and you-use-almost-always utility/buff spells such as area effect nukes, Haste, Greater Dispel Magic, Stoneskin and so on.